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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 07:44 AM
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i don't need guide plates if I have SA rockers which I am having shipped. As far as the rockers, they are not too night. It's completely impossible to over tighten them when i'm tightening them with my thumb and forefinger... I believe that the pushrods are too short and I will find out when I get my new pushrods and pushrod length checkers. I cannot take a picture because I have already sent back those rocker arms to get the SA arms.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 08:01 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballerokid
i don't need guide plates if I have SA rockers which I am having shipped. As far as the rockers, they are not too night. It's completely impossible to over tighten them when i'm tightening them with my thumb and forefinger... I believe that the pushrods are too short and I will find out when I get my new pushrods and pushrod length checkers. I cannot take a picture because I have already sent back those rocker arms to get the SA arms.
your pushrods could be the wrong length, but if you spin the pushrods and then tighten 1/2 turn your lifters do have too much preload.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2010, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballerokid
I already have had the heads machined and have screw in studs installed otherwise the spring pressure I'm running would pull the studs out of the heads.
IF the studs have a hex on the shank, and the boss wasn't shortened/faced for use w/the studs, some of the height of the stud will be taken up by the stud hex.

At least, the tops of the bosses need to be spot faced to give a flat, true surface to tighten the studs to, unless the studs are the straight shank-type w/o a hex to tighten them.

AFA the geometry goes, you will need to measure w/the tool you've ordered to see what length p-rod you need to obtain the correct geometry. If you find that you cannot obtain the correct geometry- w/o the rocker interfering w/the guide boss- the guide bosses will need to be shortened.
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Old 04-21-2010, 12:32 PM
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I haven't read every post so maybe I missed it. What type of lifter are you using? If they are hydraulic, you cannot adjust your lash until they are pumped up. If you do, you will get the result that you have described.
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Old 04-22-2010, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
your pushrods could be the wrong length, but if you spin the pushrods and then tighten 1/2 turn your lifters do have too much preload.
I have a Crane (flat tappet) cam and I'm on the short side of what Crane recommended in their instructions. Crane recommended 1 full turn after zero lash. I'll have to find where I have that and post it on here.

Cobalt327... I have plain screw in studs with no hex head at all. I had a machine shop install them for me. I am using 3998993, 350 Crate motor, 90' and up, Hecho En Mexico, 159/64cc ports, 76cc heads with 1.94 in. and 1.60 ex. The heads have been port matched and polished, so the 159cc intake runner is incorrect. I'm pretty sure my pushrods are off and I'm anxious to get this figured out.

Schovil69... That's another thing, I have soaked the lifters in oil (upright) and they are primed. I will not "pump" them up because that is another thing Crane stated specifically "not" to do with their lifters. You just need to prime the engine before you start it. Again, I will have to find where I have that information and post it.

I really appreciate all the information and all the help.

Last edited by Caballerokid; 04-22-2010 at 03:34 AM.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 06:16 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballerokid
I have a Crane (flat tappet) cam and I'm on the short side of what Crane recommended in their instructions. Crane recommended 1 full turn after zero lash. I'll have to find where I have that and post it on here.

Cobalt327... I have plain screw in studs with no hex head at all. I had a machine shop install them for me. I am using 3998993, 350 Crate motor, 90' and up, Hecho En Mexico, 159/64cc ports, 76cc heads with 1.94 in. and 1.60 ex. The heads have been port matched and polished, so the 159cc intake runner is incorrect. I'm pretty sure my pushrods are off and I'm anxious to get this figured out.

Schovil69... That's another thing, I have soaked the lifters in oil (upright) and they are primed. I will not "pump" them up because that is another thing Crane stated specifically "not" to do with their lifters. You just need to prime the engine before you start it. Again, I will have to find where I have that information and post it.

I really appreciate all the information and all the help.
1 full turn is about 3/4 of a turn too much. You should pump up the lifters.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballerokid
I have a Crane (flat tappet) cam and I'm on the short side of what Crane recommended in their instructions. Crane recommended 1 full turn after zero lash. I'll have to find where I have that and post it on here.
Where the concern about the method used comes in, is that it's a little harder to tell when zero lash is reached when twirling the p-rod as opposed to jiggling it up and down.

Either way works, but some will say that jiggling is easier for a first-timer. I would tend to agree, especially if the intake is on the engine and you cannot see the lifter while lashing it.

Another troublesome area is the tool used to tighten the rocker stud. Some guys will use a socket that will have it's bottom edge extend below the bottom of the nut. This can give a false zero, because the socket is contacting the rocker, not the nut- and will result in a too loose adjustment, where the "twirl method" will usually result in a too tight adjustment if done incorrectly.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 08:25 PM
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I'm not a first timer with adjusting valves. I am a first timer with roller rockers. I am not using a socket... I cannot because they are poly-locks. I can promise you that the valves are not too tight. Just setting a roller rocker arm on and a stamped rocker next to it, there is a world of difference! The roller rocker is just plain sitting much lower to the head than the stamped rocker. I got my adjustable pushrod length checker today, I'm just waitin on the new roller rockers to get here.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caballerokid
As far as the rockers, they are not too night. It's completely impossible to over tighten them when i'm tightening them with my thumb and forefinger...
Visualize a lifter that is less than full of oil. If you cannot also visualize the plunger being pushed down into the lifter bore while you "do the twist", then you're too hard-headed to learn anything anyway.
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Old 04-22-2010, 08:46 PM
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why should i pump the lifters when the manufacture tells you not to? I truely appreciate all the help but I don't understand why there are so many people that are so sure I an wrong that none of their information even coincides with everyone else's? Also, why would I go against manufature information? they tell you not to pump becauase they is a chance they will be stuck fully pumped... It's not that I am too hard-headed to learn, I am simply following instructions and I'm asking why I should stray from them. Thats all...

Last edited by Caballerokid; 04-22-2010 at 08:51 PM.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 08:55 PM
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I'm not taking exception to anything you're doing generally, I just took exception to your statement that it was impossible to get the valves too tight by "doing the twist".
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:07 PM
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I can understand that. The reason I do not believe that the valves are too tight is just because the standard rocker sits just fine and the roller rocker is what I am having trouble with. I'm just curious why we cannot come up with other possibilities and not just condeming that the valves are too tight and thats it...
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:26 PM
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I feel the OP has a good enough grasp of proper valvetrain adjustment based on his posts so far, but it is always good to remind folks that the "spin method" of judging zero lash gets more inexperienced rodders in trouble than any other method, we see it a lot on this board and many others, it is pretty common.

On to the problem, I believe it is a combination of the larger size of the trunnion area of the full needle bearing rocker and the fact that the threaded studs used here are of the straight shank replacement type threaded stud with no external hex requiring no machining of the boss to install other than threading the original hole. The uncut boss is interfering with the bigger rocker body on the underside of the rocker.

This is not a totally unheard of problem.

Three ways to fix it: Carefully grind or file clearance into the rocker body and then fully clean the bearings of debris. I have seen this done but don't like it personally, this is a highly loaded area of the rocker.

Install a longer pushrod to raise the rocker. While the longer pushrod is the simple fix it may cause incorrect rocker geometry leading you back to the first solution to fix the problem. In your favor is the fact that the full roller rocker is more tolerant of slightly less than perfect geometry allowing you to "cheat" the pushrod length a little( about .050") and get you the needed clearance.

Last, and most correct method, is to machine down the cast bosses in the head, but this will require the removal of the head for the machining process.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-22-2010, 09:46 PM
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I went back and read every post very slowly and carefully and have to agree with Eric that the problem is in the trunnion of the roller rockers. If you use the letter V as an example, you will visualize the rocker tips on the pushrod and valve sides and the trunnion in the vee. The stock rockers were a very shallow vee and the aluminum rockers are a very deep vee. I can see that what needs to be done to run these rockers is to cut some off the pad where the studs are threaded in.

If you will notice, a line drawn through the pushrod centerline and the valve centerline will not be parallel. The longer the pushrod and the longer the valve to mate up with it, the shorter the distance between the tips becomes, so you can't just arbitrarily lengthen the pushrod and the valve to fix this problem. You must make room at the bottom of the rocker where it will make little difference in geometry. Anyway, that's my opinion.
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Old 04-22-2010, 09:47 PM
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Earlier you said, "I already have had the heads machined and have screw in studs installed otherwise the spring pressure I'm running would pull the studs out of the heads".

Are the springs/retainers a larger OD than the stockers? What cam number are you using?
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