14101083 Cylinder Head - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 03:03 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevroletSS View Post
Ill port them myself. Now I have practiced porting on heads for endless hours but what I still dont get is how Im supposed to tell if I made all the runners the same. I mean its very possible that by doing it myself that when Im done none of them will be the same. Does it matter if one flows just a little differently than others and so on?????
Yes it does.It is one of the main reasons why RHS purchased a high dollar CNC machine and all those yrs of R & D was downloaded into it.
As I suggested in another post why you would best suited to build a home flow bench first.Flying blind is returning to caveman tech of all too many yrs ago.
Any suggestion that is doesn't matter,the source doesn't have enough practical experience.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 04:05 PM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Or another way of looking at it is the same theory behind using non equal length headers- they will tend to lower- but BROADEN- the powerband. Same thing w/ports that are not exactly the same. And w/production iron heads, there's a LOT of room for improvement, regardless if the ports are identical or not.

But w/novices I will always recommend have the guides done, and an accurate 3-angle valve job, and back cut the valves if they have the ability or a few extra dollars in the budget. Then at home stick to the low-hanging fruit: do the bowls, clean the flash and port match the intake (NOT gasket match!) and match the headers and gaskets to the exhaust ports. Leave the short side alone. Do not reshape anything. Leave the valve size stock 1.94" x 1.5".

Otherwise, spend the money on a set of aftermarket heads.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 10:46 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
Fully port the intake and exhaust ports. Yes smooth and blend the short side radius.
Yes smooth and steamline the vavle guide boss to create two strong flow paths around the guide boss.
Do not fuss over wether the ports vary in flow by 1 or 2 cfm.
just make them visually as close as you can. The critical part that matters is the size of the push rod pinch area.
create a guage to check sizes.
Good result can be had with the stock valves. But on these head once fully ported a 2.02x 1.60 valve
or a 2.05x 1.60 valve set works very very well.
These headss need generous porting for good results. But use a felpro 1205 gasket as a guide.
Again do not fuss over minor variation in port flow.
This BS advice is from people who have never ported a cylinder head or actual built high performance engines.
How did we all create powerfull race engines before CNC porting and the internet?

These heads are capable of 260+cfm when fully ported with a 2.05" valve.
You can hit about 240cfm with a 1.94" valve.
which is a big gain from 198cfm stock.. 1-2-3 cfm don't mean squat.
Don;t be shy with the porting and do not listen to amateurs.
Racers have been sucessfully hand porting stock SBC cylinder heads
and getting big air flow and horsepower gains without CNC machines or flow benchs, since 1955.
I have been doing this for 35+ years. Long before CNC porting.
You can too.
We have been porting heads and port matching heads long before 1955.Having learned the mistakes from "back in the day" we have moved forward and corrected those errors.There are some that just can't let go of the"back in the day" thinking a 12 second car was fast.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:04 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post

Don;t be shy with the porting and do not listen to amateurs.
Racers have been sucessfully hand porting stock SBC cylinder heads
and getting big air flow and horsepower gains without CNC machines or flow benchs, since 1955.
Reported to forum management.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2013, 11:33 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevroletSS View Post
Ill port them myself. Now I have practiced porting on heads for endless hours but what I still dont get is how Im supposed to tell if I made all the runners the same. I mean its very possible that by doing it myself that when Im done none of them will be the same. Does it matter if one flows just a little differently than others and so on?????
The most important feature is the shape of the port and not it's size or intake runner size.We have learned over the yrs a good understand of a/f dynamics and how the shape of a port effects that and applying that to porting a head.That the cross section of a port is more important than the runner size.

That it takes time and experience to get it right and verification with a flow bench through trial and error. If you truly want to take it to the next level,do a search to start learning more.It is useless for you to have to go through the same things we did from the 50's to the 90's and then call it all good.

Maybe what bugs me the most,is a suggestion you ignore all during that time what we learned. That is maybe the single most important thing that has made such a huge difference from the very old school way of doing things.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 04:04 AM
cobalt327's Avatar
WFO
 
Last wiki edit: Intake manifold
Last journal entry: 1980 Malibu Wagon
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Atlanta
Age: 60
Posts: 5,037
Wiki Edits: 1616

Thanks: 128
Thanked 598 Times in 547 Posts
Telling people w/o any experience to alter the short side radius is just wrong IMO. You seem to think that no harm can be done to a cylinder head regardless of how much is hacked out of it. You (should) know better.

If you were "passing out" anything of real value other than green lighting hogging hell out of a head, then you'd send each of these people templates that could be duplicated in brass, of all the important radii/sections of the ports. In this case, I don't even see good photos- which leave a lot open to interpretation even if there were a hundred of them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to cobalt327 For This Useful Post:
1Gary (01-06-2013)
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 07:02 AM
Camaro_Nut2001's Avatar
Drag Racing Lover
 

Last journal entry: '68 Impala Project
Last photo:
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Mascot, TN.
Age: 46
Posts: 163
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 101
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevroletSS View Post
Ill port them myself. Now I have practiced porting on heads for endless hours but what I still dont get is how Im supposed to tell if I made all the runners the same. I mean its very possible that by doing it myself that when Im done none of them will be the same. Does it matter if one flows just a little differently than others and so on?????
I am just learning the porting process and have practiced some on a set of crappy "882" heads and am now porting my "062" Vortecs. Let me tell ya, this is a learning experience to say the least lol. It was brought to my attention that my ports were not the same from the pictures I had posted. I went back and got them as close to the same, at least to my eyes, as I could. The only advice I can give you is take your time, check your work often, try to imagine the air coming in and going out and focus on that area and the most important is, enjoy yourself. Hot Roddin is what I trully love and cherish every second that I am in the garage. Don't get me wrong, lol, as I am nervous about ruining a good pair of heads and/or making them worse but, thats what learning is all about. Also, I value the knowledge of alot of our members and read, have read and will read alot more on heads in every aspect. Good luck to you and I am quite sure you will do a fine job on your porting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 10:49 AM
Proud LOSER
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,072
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 82
Thanked 316 Times in 273 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camaro_Nut2001 View Post
I am just learning the porting process and have practiced some on a set of crappy "882" heads and am now porting my "062" Vortecs. Let me tell ya, this is a learning experience to say the least lol. It was brought to my attention that my ports were not the same from the pictures I had posted. I went back and got them as close to the same, at least to my eyes, as I could. The only advice I can give you is take your time, check your work often, try to imagine the air coming in and going out and focus on that area and the most important is, enjoy yourself. Hot Roddin is what I trully love and cherish every second that I am in the garage. Don't get me wrong, lol, as I am nervous about ruining a good pair of heads and/or making them worse but, thats what learning is all about. Also, I value the knowledge of alot of our members and read, have read and will read alot more on heads in every aspect. Good luck to you and I am quite sure you will do a fine job on your porting.
Good advice......
And from experience I can tell you, take your time, try and visually match as best you can, they will work,and well. I have done 2 sets of heads now, the first set were 416 castings,and I had zero invested so I had no fear, I had a ton of time in them, but that was by choice,and because I'm a complete newb at it lol. So i kept going back over to try and make everything uniform, and when I thought I was done, I wasn't, and kept at it until the flow paths looked uniform, and the pushrod pinch was very well narrowed and looked as minamly restricted as I could get it. This heads went on with a small cam, a qjet Carb, and Shorty headers, and I was shocked at how well it performed. You will be too. If you listen to the "more money then brains" club about cnc machines and afrheads and the best parts you can buy, your ride will never see pavement .....it will be a pretty pile of parts on a bench....so roll up your sleeves, dig in deep, and have fun. Your not going to hurt anything, your going to have fun and learn, and you WILL make more power in doing it.
Rant over
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 11:15 AM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
Not sure why anyone is telling you the ports dont need to match they surely do need to match. If they dont it will unbalance the engine at high rpm and it will make less power. One bad port can drag along and slow the engines total rpm loosing a thousand rpm can mean 100 hp.

If you use a shop vac to suck the chips down the port andout the valve side you can kinda see how the air flows incents or a cigg can give you a smoke trail to follow. Stright line of smoke means good flow stalling or circling air is poor flow. But way to much to explain in this little box.

Also keeps iron dust from causeing damage around the shop. Forgot to mention this but dont port near your painted cars the rusting chips will screw up your paint. Also not good for lungs and any other things you can think of.

Less is more just cut the casting marks smooth and flat and stick the heads on the car. Also try to do all the ports at once one cut per port makes them easier to match up and prevents you from spending 20 hours on the first port and needing another 120 hours of work to complete.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 11:51 AM
Proud LOSER
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,072
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 82
Thanked 316 Times in 273 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Not sure why anyone is telling you the ports dont need to match they surely do need to match. If they dont it will unbalance the engine at high rpm and it will make less power. One bad port can drag along and slow the engines total rpm loosing a thousand rpm can mean 100 hp.

If you use a shop vac to suck the chips down the port andout the valve side you can kinda see how the air flows incents or a cigg can give you a smoke trail to follow. Stright line of smoke means good flow stalling or circling air is poor flow. But way to much to explain in this little box.

Also keeps iron dust from causeing damage around the shop. Forgot to mention this but dont port near your painted cars the rusting chips will screw up your paint. Also not good for lungs and any other things you can think of.

Less is more just cut the casting marks smooth and flat and stick the heads on the car. Also try to do all the ports at once one cut per port makes them easier to match up and prevents you from spending 20 hours on the first port and needing another 120 hours of work to complete.
We wernt saying they don't need to match, just that your not going to get exact, and that's OK, the OP was essentially being told that hand porting is a waste of time, and that with today's cnc machines or high dollar out of the box heads, that it was a waste of time and performance will be unimproved doing it by hand. And that's ridiculous, yes, always try and match, and don't go and just hog the the hell out of the ports, but with some time, and patience, and lots of reading and learning what works, he isn't going to hurt anything, and will improve flow, and performance. Your right, a clearly bad port that doesn't come close to flowing what the next port does is bad, but your going to get close, from experience, your going to go back to the first couple you did, and see they aren't the same as the ones you just did, and your going to work a little more, and get everything close. And they will make power.....bottom line is, just because its old fashioned or antiquated doesn't mean it won't work. If that were the case my wife would have replaced me with a 20yr old pool boy years ago.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:32 PM
1Gary's Avatar
Registered User
 

Last journal entry: 383 dyno sym
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Roch,NY
Age: 67
Posts: 1,542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 201
Thanked 156 Times in 142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
We wernt saying they don't need to match, just that your not going to get exact, and that's OK, the OP was essentially being told that hand porting is a waste of time, and that with today's cnc machines or high dollar out of the box heads, that it was a waste of time and performance will be unimproved doing it by hand. And that's ridiculous, yes, always try and match, and don't go and just hog the the hell out of the ports, but with some time, and patience, and lots of reading and learning what works, he isn't going to hurt anything, and will improve flow, and performance. Your right, a clearly bad port that doesn't come close to flowing what the next port does is bad, but your going to get close, from experience, your going to go back to the first couple you did, and see they aren't the same as the ones you just did, and your going to work a little more, and get everything close. And they will make power.....bottom line is, just because its old fashioned or antiquated doesn't mean it won't work. If that were the case my wife would have replaced me with a 20yr old pool boy years ago.
She did replace you with the muscle bound pool boy,you just don't know about it.LOL

To just go in and open up a port and not even be able to check it with a home built flow bench is what I said.RHS has yrs of modeling ports by hand as a ref to up load into a CNC program and has computer models it uses as well.They have heads around that are test models under continuous R & D.It's the little things that add up to huge gains.I am just site'ing RHS as only one progressive aftermarket company doing this,there are more than that.

Hot Rodding to me has always been build the best and learn the current tech.We have been in the top 4 in 9.90 racing for a very long time.Over 20 yrs.Our best this season in a now RED was in the 1/8 with a Alky 632 was 5.65@150mph.I do think I know a thing or two about the history of drag racing and the tech past and current.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:35 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 56
Posts: 8,668
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 365
Thanked 862 Times in 824 Posts
re home porting.
I dont discourage anyone from trying anything,,,,Ive done it myself. My only point is or question:How do you know how much in the way of improvement you gain by home porting?
I start with a 150 HP engine,add better intake carb,cam,headers=now I have 250HP
the home ported pos heads add how many more HP?lets say another 30,now round that up to 50 with a super tune.I now have a solid 300 HP engine(unvarified)
this equals good experience,because,,,,next time I will start with a 300 HP engine and apply my past experience.

when you start to make bigger power IE more than 1 HP/cube then parts will need more attention to detail.The more HP you make,the more it costs per HP.This is where the phrase "no replacement for displacement" comes from.We all have to work within a certain budget and these discussions need to be geared towards that part of the engine build.
With me I zero balance all engines as to me,the smooth running,especially at higher RPM and the added life make that process essential to me

maybe with you,a hydraulic cam,though giving up power is worth it for the nasty idle and not having to make adjustments
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:41 PM
hcompton's Avatar
Old & Furious
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: MD
Age: 42
Posts: 1,074
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 6
Thanked 90 Times in 87 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
We wernt saying they don't need to match, just that your not going to get exact, and that's OK, the OP was essentially being told that hand porting is a waste of time, and that with today's cnc machines or high dollar out of the box heads, that it was a waste of time and performance will be unimproved doing it by hand. And that's ridiculous, yes, always try and match, and don't go and just hog the the hell out of the ports, but with some time, and patience, and lots of reading and learning what works, he isn't going to hurt anything, and will improve flow, and performance. Your right, a clearly bad port that doesn't come close to flowing what the next port does is bad, but your going to get close, from experience, your going to go back to the first couple you did, and see they aren't the same as the ones you just did, and your going to work a little more, and get everything close. And they will make power.....bottom line is, just because its old fashioned or antiquated doesn't mean it won't work. If that were the case my wife would have replaced me with a 20yr old pool boy years ago.
Hopefully neither she or the pool boy is a member of the forum. LOL

Got ya yeah cnc is like stage one porting for most engines. Most high end work is hand done. Cnc is popular becasue they dont have to pay for another employee. But unless the head can rotate around the bit 360 in all directions. Its only going to be able to do so much. I have cnc combustion chambers in my procomp heads it is the cheapest way to make a good combustion chamber. Not the best just the cheapest.

Cnc equals cheap not best quaility. Many companies hand port there heads from the factory ferrari and suzuki come to mind. They cnc first and sendin the handporter guys to make it perfect.

Porting is similiar in skill to welding. You can weld everyday for 20 years and be a master welder. Stop doing it for 10 years and pick up welder again student will run smoother builds than you until you get your muscle memory back in shape. Yes just about anyone can weld but not everyone can make pretty welds. And just like porting robots and computers cant do it. One look at a honda sport bike frame the welds are perfect and clean as can be. These are all hand done by welding gods at honda. Truat me they have tried to teach the machines to weld like them but it doesnt work.

Becoming a great porter is pretty easy get large stackof heads and start cutting. After you have trashed a pickup truck load worth of heads you will be ready for flow bench and dyno results. Yep ok results can be gotten from quicky job but master port work like changing the shape and size is best left to pro. If you want to make the port bigger increase the valve size and make the port that much larger all the way out. Keepingthe same basic shape and size.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:47 PM
Proud LOSER
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,072
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 82
Thanked 316 Times in 273 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
re home porting.
I dont discourage anyone from trying anything,,,,Ive done it myself. My only point is or question:How do you know how much in the way of improvement you gain by home porting?
I start with a 150 HP engine,add better intake carb,cam,headers=now I have 250HP
the home ported pos heads add how many more HP?lets say another 30,now round that up to 50 with a super tune.I now have a solid 300 HP engine(unvarified)
this equals good experience,because,,,,next time I will start with a 300 HP engine and apply my past experience.

when you start to make bigger power IE more than 1 HP/cube then parts will need more attention to detail.The more HP you make,the more it costs per HP.This is where the phrase "no replacement for displacement" comes from.We all have to work within a certain budget and these discussions need to be geared towards that part of the engine build.
With me I zero balance all engines as to me,the smooth running,especially at higher RPM and the added life make that process essential to me

maybe with you,a hydraulic cam,though giving up power is worth it for the nasty idle and not having to make adjustments
I guess that's a better way to address it, from my standpoint, I started with junk, and a dirt budget, and I have zero doubt the work I did made an improvement, for what it was, cheap and dirty, and it worked, now would I take my virtually non existent experience and hit a set of quality heads looking for an improvement? Jesus no, its more likely I would go back words, and really, I wouldnt know better, would just complain about my high dorral maximum ported heads performing poorly.....I'm not that foolish however....but Gary is saying that he believes in good parts, and learning the tech of today, and utilizing it. And i agree, but some of us can't.....he can save, buy the best, be ahead of the curve even, but it doesn't make it the be all of hot rodding......his way is good, and someday I hope to be there, but for now, home ported junk heads, hyd flat cams, and some common sense means I can play too......
And for the record, that pic of your car I your avi makes me wanna cry every time I see it lol......I swear I'm gonna finish this damn truck, drive it this summer, and sell it to buy a stick C3 and make a vicious roadracer version......I blame you
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2013, 12:50 PM
Proud LOSER
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 2,072
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 82
Thanked 316 Times in 273 Posts
[QUOTE=hcompton;1631329]Hopefully neither she or the pool boy is a member of the forum. LOL
[QUOTE]
I swear to god I'm gonna get a truck full of sand and fill the damn thing in lol.....
Or hire a pool boy for her, and a maid for me
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cylinder head ID? Anyone know what a head with a 5x stamp? bigtmoney Engine 3 02-11-2012 04:49 PM
cylinder head hp 81Blue Engine 9 11-14-2004 04:32 PM
More cylinder head HemmiGremmie Engine 2 02-29-2004 01:11 PM
cylinder head help Lightspeed Engine 5 06-14-2003 02:54 PM
Cylinder head help 80Camino Engine 2 10-21-2002 05:45 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 12:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.