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Old 12-11-2010, 11:19 PM
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1923 t bucket

Good Evening:

I am a new member desperately needing information on a brake booster system.

I recently purchased a 1923 t bucket with a 1974 Mustang 11 front end.

The T bucket presently has a master cylinder from a 1972 chevelle.

I under stand there is a brake booster that can be installed, but I have no information as to model type.

I have also been told the brake booster can be installed under the frame area so as not to be on the fire wall.

I would sure appreciate any and all help with this problem.

Thank You

JS

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Old 12-12-2010, 06:34 AM
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brakes

first u don't need a brk booster on a t bucket.. they are too light.. with that said i do know they are used but not very often because of the wt... ck summit or jeggs for a mini unit.
again not to take anything away from this site, u may want to ck out "nationaltbucketalliance.com" and post that question on the public bbs.. we have a guy "fatpat" that is very knowageable on this subject. again both my buckets don't have boosters on them and no problems. i'm using an early 90's ford ranger m/c with disc/drum. bill
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Old 12-12-2010, 07:19 AM
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brakes on a t-bucket

go on line to speedwaymotors.com.This is a great place lots of help
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Old 12-12-2010, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steiner
Good Evening:

I am a new member desperately needing information on a brake booster system.
First, Welcome to this site.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steiner
I recently purchased a 1923 t bucket with a 1974 Mustang 11 front end.
This is definitely NOT the typical front end used on a fenderless 'T' roadster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steiner
The T bucket presently has a master cylinder from a 1972 chevelle.

I under stand there is a brake booster that can be installed, but I have no information as to model type.

I have also been told the brake booster can be installed under the frame area so as not to be on the fire wall.

I would sure appreciate any and all help with this problem.

Thank You

JS
Where is the master cylinder presently mounted? From your statement it seems to be mounted on the firewall.

There are several distributors of frame mounted under the floor master cylinders. Both with or without power brake boosters.

You should not require power brakes for your light weight car.

Many aftermarket boosters that will fit under the floor come in either 7" or 8" diameter and are either single or dual diaphragm versions. The 7" single diaphragm version is next to being useless and should not even be considered. Of the various sizes offered the 8" dual diaphragm would be the most effective.

You also must keep in mind that the pedal ratio needed is very different for manual or power brake systems to operate correctly. Most aftermarket pedals come in a 6:1 or 7:1 ratio and are best suited for manual braking systems. Power brake setups require about a 4:1 pedal ratio to operate correctly. Using a higher pedal ratio with power brakes will result in a very low pedal.

The bore diameter of the master cylinder must also be considered. Manual brakes work best with around a 7/8"-1" bore. Power brakes work best with a 1 1/8" bore.

For safety concerns a master cylinder with dual reservoirs are preferred, BUT single reservoir master cylinders have been used by the auto manufacturers for many years with no problems.

If you do install an under the floor master cylinder, you must also install a 2 psi residual valve in the front lines if you have disc brakes there and a 10 psi residual valve in the rear brake line for drum brakes in the rear.

You should also install an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear brake line so that you can adjust the brake bias from front to rear. If you don't adjust this, the rear brakes may apply before the fronts and the car will swap ends very quickly when applying the brakes hard. Very scary when this happens.

ENJOY you 'T' and this site.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:30 PM
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Thanks for the information.

Where would one get the 2 and 10 psi residual valves, and are they in-line valves?

I have never had anything to do with this kind of mechanical systems, so I want to make sure it is done correctly.

Where does the proportional valve go in the brake system?

Thank You

JS
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steiner
Thanks for the information.

Where would one get the 2 and 10 psi residual valves, and are they in-line valves?

I have never had anything to do with this kind of mechanical systems, so I want to make sure it is done correctly.

Where does the proportional valve go in the brake system?

Thank You

JS
This will take up a couple of posts because of the pictures I will include.

Go to Speedway Motors for many of your streetrod needs. Here are three links to the 2 psi residual valve, 10 psi residual valve and the adjustable proportioning valve.

The pictures show various samples of the installation of residual valves and the proportioning valve depending on whether you have a disc/disc or a disc/drum setup. If you have a drum brake setup all around, then you would use a 10 psi residual valve in the front and the rear brake lines. Some single reservoir masters cylinders have a 10 psi residual valve installed in the master cylinder. There is an arrow embossed on the outer surface of the valve to show the direction for installation. They are a one way valve. Most aftermarket adjustable proportioning valves are wide open when the knob is turned all the way clockwise. (This is just opposite of what you would expect). They restrict flow by about 60% when they are turned all the way counter-clockwise. A good starting point would be about half way open.

Left click on the pictures for a larger view.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:03 AM
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Here are the diagrams.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:34 AM
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Here is a .pdf file concerning pedal ratios for your info. I forgot to attach it when I replied above.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf pedalratiopdf.pdf (128.3 KB, 88 views)
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:52 AM
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bks

i'm not up on the power bks for buckets but i do know u are better off if your manual leverage is 7 to 1.. less then that and u will need more foot pressure to stop. more then 7/1 will make it easier and less effort.. it all depends on power or not.
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:52 PM
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I have never seen where anyone would run a Mustang front end on a t-bucket.. But if that's what you have.. You still don't need power brakes on a t.. The car is way to light, even with the Mustang front end..But you ''do'' need to have the ratio right on the pedal.. In the right residual valve if the MC is under the body.. I'm building one right now for a friend..
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:00 PM
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Thanks for replying:

I recently purchased this T Bucket and yes it does have a mustang 2 front end.
The pedal ratio is way out of whack, it has about 3 inches blow the pivot point and 8 inches above.

I will have to do some modifying to get it correct.

I did talk with another person that indicated Ford made a mustang with discs on the front and drums on the rear and the brakes were manual.

I have located the master cylinder at NAPA for about $70. It supposably has the correct pressure requirements built into the master cylinder, so the valves will not be necessary. ((HOPEFULLY)).

If you are interested I will send you the results after installation of the Ford Mustang Master cylinder.

Again thanks for the help.

John Steiner
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:42 PM
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The problem with your braking system is you are using too large of a master cyl. Pedal ratio is incorrect. Another problem is your master is under the floor. If the master is mounted lower than the wheel cylinders/calipers. You will need the residual valves in the system. Otherwise the fluid can bleed/siphon back into the master. When the vehicle is parked on an angle/hill. Or stored, Resulting in no brakes.

When you get the pedal ratio corrected. Go to a 7/8" master MAX. When I first built my bucket. Everyone told me to use Corvette style master.. WRONG!!! I had to literally stand on the brakes just to slow down.. Scary to say the least. I then studied some articles on brakes and found the problem.. I have a master from a Chevette under the floor in my bucket.. Feels like power brakes. The smaller the master, the better the brakes in this situation..
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:03 PM
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When I built my T, I put Wilwood 11" discs with 4-piston Dynalite calipers up front, and had S-10 drums on the back. Wilwood 1" bore MC under the floor. No booster. Pedal ratio was 4:1. Residual pressure valves on the front and back. Adjustable proportioning valve on the back between the residual valve and the wheel cylinders. Pedal effort was high, but no problem stopping.

Then made a series of changes. First, changed pedal ratio to 6:1, resulting in less pedal effort. Next, changed out the master cylinder to a 7/8" bore. Better yet, with a more natural pedal travel and feel. Stopped well, but fronts would lock up well ahead of backs (which would hardly lock up at all), even with proportioning valve opened all the way.

Finally, took proportioning valve out of system. Result, brakes are much better balanced, and the pedal effort became notably less ( wasn't expecting that). I read an article somewhere that stated a proportioning valve (on the back for instance, such as mine was) could result in an increased pedal effort for the whole system. That statement was spot on in my case.

Today, I would not even consider a booster.

One must remember that when using an MC built for a specific car (Corvette, Mustang, whatever), that MC is precisely designed for that specific car - weight, suspension, tire / wheel size, wheel cylinder size and/or caliper piston size and volumes, pedal ratio, etc. All of these are pretty unique to each car.

Those that build T's exacerbate all these factors because the typical T is not setup anywhere near a typical production car - I guess that is obvious so I shouldn't have said it. Anyway, on these cars we build we mix and match brake systems and components taken from different cars, many times use different size tires, have little suspension travel (weight transfer between axles), have odd axle weight ratio, many times use straight axles, employ a low center of gravity (easily skids), overpowered, and are generally light vehicles. Then we optimistically expect these production components we use to work like a well-tuned system.

In the end I feel I've tweaked the system in my car to the point that I'm satisfied with it, but it took a little experimentation.

Anyway, all of the above is my opinion only. If I were to do the system over again, I probably go with a balance bar system using two separate master cylinders. That way I could match MC bore and volumes with the caliper / wheel cylinder volume requirements, have full MC redundancy, and adjustability. Very little additional complexity for the benefit.

Tackle one issue at a time. Your pedal ratio is way off at just under 3:1, so that fix will result in a big improvement. Master cyl bore size is next. 7/8" or smaller is good for manual brakes. This is where you need to make a decision about a booster. This 7/8" or smaller MC will not be satisfactory with a booster, so if you decide to go that route you are also saying no booster in the system. Lastly, output pressure is not the only thing to consider, the output volume must be adequate to operate the pistons in the calipers and/or wheel cylinders. Good luck to you.
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Old 12-15-2010, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Steiner
I have located the master cylinder at NAPA for about $70. It supposably has the correct pressure requirements built into the master cylinder, so the valves will not be necessary. ((HOPEFULLY)).

If you are interested I will send you the results after installation of the Ford Mustang Master cylinder.

Again thanks for the help.

John Steiner
IF the master cylinder is firewall mounted and well above the wheel cylinders/calipers, then you probably will not require the residual valves. Actually, the master cylinder may have the residual valves already installed in the ports where the brake lines connect. Look in the ports. If you see any restrictions, then the residual valves are in the master cylinder.

Residual valves have nothing to do with the master cylinder pressure requirements to fully operate the braking system. They are used to prevent the brake fluid from flowing back into the master cylinder and reducing the residual pressure that is required to keep the wheel cylinder pistons or the caliper pistons from retracting too far when the brakes are released. Some residual pressure is required to keep the wheel cylinder pistons against the seals and the caliper pistons from retracting more than about .015 when released. When the master cylinder is mounted close to the level of the wheel cylinders or calipers this 'backflow' can occur easily if residual valves are not in place. Residual valves are basically a one way valve that allows full pressure in one direction and limits the back pressure to a pre-set psi. Usually 2 psi for disc brakes and 10 psi for drum brakes. There is one exception that I know of and that is when GM disc brake rear calipers with the built in cam operated parking brake is used. This caliper will need to have a 10 psi residual valve used.

The master cylinder bore will determine how much pressure it can produce. Smaller bore= greater pressure. The master cylinder stroke and reservoir capacity will determine the volume of fluid that can be expelled when the master cylinders piston is moved inside the bore. The pedal ratio will determine how much foot pressure will need to be applied to have the master cylinder work. Wheel cylinder bore and stroke or caliper piston bore and stroke will determine their respective pressure yields and volume requirements. All these work together to enable your braking system to function properly and safely.

You will still need to install an adjustable proportioning valve to be able to adjust the brake bias front to rear.

The pedal ratio you posted definitely needs to be changed for manual brakes.

Post your results as you make progress. They will be of interest to many and will assist others with their builds.

ENJOY!!!

Last edited by Frisco; 12-15-2010 at 08:11 AM.
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