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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2010, 08:28 PM
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Gang it looks like I will be able to use a rod about 35" long. If I go outside the frame like Brian it would be even longer. Great idea Brian. I'm going to go ahead and make my rod end mounts and wait until I get the frame loaded at ride height before I weld it all up.

I love this forum. Thanks again all!

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2010, 06:10 AM
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The higher the Panhard, the looser the car will be in a corner. This is one of the ways the roundy-round boys adjust the handling. They raise or lower the chassis end of the Panhard. Note that this takes it away from the horizontal. In other words, it's not absolutely necessary that it be horizontal. While I don't think it's the way to go, some circle track racers (particularly, dirt track) deliberately use an offset (usually to the right), short, angled Panhard.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2010, 09:34 AM
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We are talking about a street car here. On the street, the longest, most level pivot points provides for the least amount of sideways movement of the body on the rear end.

I am by no means a chassis engineer but mounting the pivot point high on the body (mounted on the left) would make sense on a circle track car in that when the rear end goes up it would push the body to the left bringing the center of gravity IN on the corner.

But notice that if you took a right hand corner it would do just the OPPOSITE!

So what is good on a left hand turning circle track racer isn't always what would be good on a car that makes both left and right turns.

Brian
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:52 AM
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I will stick with what I have been doing for a while now.. Work's great for me.. And I don't build circle track cars.. Many high name people still build street cars the way I do.. And they have been doing it way longer then me... And they didn't change how they do it.. I will also do what works...Thats whats good about the USA,, You can do it anyway ''you'' Like.. Like I said before.. If your ''not'' Building a road course car... It's no big deal !!!
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2010, 10:04 AM
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Like all things though, the gray area can by huge, or it can be very small and not knowing and understanding this can get you into trouble. You know the old saying "You know what you know", "You know what you don't know" and "You don't know what you don't know". The last one is dangerous!

If you are building that car and you understand how it works you know it will work on THIS particular car as well. But if someone is building a car and doesn't fully understand the geometry they could create a problem with one small thing like the height of the mounting. Say for instance you have a car with very little clearance between the tire and the fender, or the tire and the wheelhouse, a quarter of an inch of lateral movement could be a TON and having the bars pivot points near perfectly level and a long bar could make the difference from the tire hitting or not hitting.

The more the guy understands about the geometry the better.

Brian
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Old 11-26-2010, 10:10 AM
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Man !!! Y'all talk like your rearend moves 10'' are more.. The main thing to keep in mine here is ''LEVEL'' !!! and long as you can.. (And I sure don't mean the whole length of the rear end) I really don't need to say anymore here..
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2010, 03:37 PM
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I have driven pro-street cars with short panhards and was not happy with the feel of the axle shifting laterally when going over bumps. Kinda feels like an old Cadillac with underinflated radial tires. Increasing the length of the panhard (nearly caliper to caliper or backing plate to backing plate), leveling it and moving it down to approximately the axle centerline made a huge difference in how the cars tracked (I have converted several). It even helped the cars track better when driving on the freeway when there are ruts in the lanes. I feel that it is worth the extra time and effort to make them this way.

Andy
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2010, 09:05 PM
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Then of course if you want perfection, you step it up to the Watts link which gives you ZERO lateral movement.



Click here for info on Watts linkage. Or here to see an interesting setup showing how it works.

The thing is it needs a lot more room, and it isn't very sexy looking.

Then you have the debate on the panhard bar. If there is any problem with room like under most hotrods space is a little limited. Something like this Dodge pickup there is plenty of space for the bar above the rear end.



But on many rods you have frame rails that are closer together and have exhaust going thru, there isn't a whole lot of room.



But most cars with stock panhard bars are like this Chevy. The photo is too large for here so just click on the link.

http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/P5300243.jpg

Here is the stock set up in a Camaro, though the bar it's self has been changed but the mounting is stock.



Here is a Toyota Corolla I believe.



But anyway the lower one going across is usually an easier one to set up as well.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 11-26-2010 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 11-27-2010, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR

I am by no means a chassis engineer but mounting the pivot point high on the body (mounted on the left) would make sense on a circle track car in that when the rear end goes up it would push the body to the left bringing the center of gravity IN on the corner. Brian
I was by no means recommending short, angled Panhards. I should have stopped after my first sentence, for all I wanted to do was warn about placing the Panhard too high.

As for whether the left or right side of the Panhard should be attached to the chassis, it really doesn't make any difference. Pavement racers commonly do it one way and dirt, the opposite. Tire loading is determined by relative roll stiffness and roll center heights in either case.
http://www.racetec.cc/shope
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Old 11-27-2010, 09:07 AM
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Or if you really want to drive yourself nuts, put together a Mumford link!

http://www.not2fast.com/chassis/mumford.shtml

Andy
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2010, 09:44 AM
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LOL, holy crap, what is the advantage?

Brian
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2010, 10:07 AM
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Look's about as good as a 5' panhard bar hanging under the back of your car.. Y'all can have it !!!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-27-2010, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR
LOL, holy crap, what is the advantage?

Brian
They go into it some in the article, but on a Watts link, the roll center is the pivot bolt on the center link, but on a Mumford link the roll center is determined by the connecting linkages and can be quite a bit lower if required, and can also be adjusted.

Cool huh...

Andy
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Old 11-28-2010, 10:09 AM
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That is cool, I agree with New interiors in that you certainly wouldn't want it on your Duece hiboy! Not if you are after the traditional look that is. But if you are building a kick butt road car with a Duece body, it's the one to go with.

Brian
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2010, 01:17 PM
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I can say this: It will never be under ''ANY'' car I ever build... NO MATTER WHO WANTS IT...
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