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1969 Buick Le sabre

7K views 73 replies 14 participants last post by  glider 
#1 ·
I have been searching every where I can with little to no luck. I recently bought a 1969 Buick 2 door hard top. All original except the wheels. The car runs and drives great. I am not 100% sure what I plan to do with the power train. It is the stock Buick 350 with a 2 barrel carb and a three on the tree tranny. From what I can find the stock engine put out 230 horses and lots torque. My current thoughts are ported and polished heads, cam, ported and matched four barrel intake, edelbrock 750 cfm carb, and a set of headers. On average what kind of power and torque gains could be expected? Is the buick 350 a good engine to rebuild? What are thoughts and opinions on the original 3 speed tranny? This seems to be a hard car to research and find parts for. Any and all information is greatly appreciated. This was a car I couldn't pass up minimal body work running, all for 1,100, which means I have plenty of room to spend some money on performance up grades. Also any information on upgrading to power steering and disc brakes would be great. Thank you!!!
 

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#38 ·
5 speed wont cost much more,,,allows more rear gear for under powered engine or more selections for road race,,most after market 5 speeds are fairly strong.

same reason for going from 3 speed to 4 speed but even better.new cars have 7&8 speeds now.get a good launch gear and great selection of ratios. I use a 5 speed and mild 3.50 rear gears.I could street dig and drive on the highway at 2,000 rpm
 
#41 ·
Not completely certain what you mean, but I'm going to answer the best that I can. I plan to cruise around, perhaps drive daily, but also have the ability to burn tires if I'm in a playing mood. Not looking at any point at all to race, I'm sure the occasional race might happen, but not the norm.
 
#43 ·
What he means is that the standard rear end ratio for that equipment combo was 3.23:1, but there were other ratios optionally available, so you need to really check your particular car to know what you have for sure.

A Muncie or T-10 is about a bolt-in for your three speed, however you still only have a 1:1 top gear. The advantage of a five speed is that you can get a lower (numerical) first gear, to get that heavy car moving off the line, plus an overdrive fifth for better mileage.
 
#44 ·
My best bud in high school had a 1971 LTD 4 door with a 302 three on the tree and manual steering. All factory.
It was a trade at the dealer where his dad worked.
We found out it was a special order for a traveling salesman when new. It had 100k on it in 76 when my friend got it.
Better mileage and cheaper cost w/o PS ??
Looking back at first , this thread made me think of the manufacturers possibly making a car that would meet EPA standards for mileage, which I cant say they were doing back then or not. But Then I remembered the 71 LTD and what my buds dad said about it when it came in.
 
#47 ·
Mileage standards didn't exist when these cars were built - Congress didn't pass those laws until after the first oil shortage in 1973-74. Base model stripper cars like this were made so the dealers could advertise the lowest possible price. When you see ads that say "Prices STARTING AT such and such...", this is what you get for the "starting at" price. There was (and is) lots of money to be made on the options.
 
#45 ·
After reading everything everyone has to say and thinking about what it is that I want from this car I am leaving the original 350 in it, after a rebuild with as many performance parts that are available. I like manual shift better and I am looking for both a four and a five speed so which ever I find first is what I am going to go with. I fell confident the only thing I would actually like to change if the front brakes from drums to disc. Not sure if it is an easy conversion, but it is high on my list of things I would like to do.
 
#46 ·
Brake swap is pretty simple, try Scarebird.com

Price out rebuilding that 350, all the while looking at 400 or 455 deals that may pop up in your area...could end up cheaper buying someone else's stalled engine project or complete rebuilt engine from a unfortunate wreck....and be cheaper that the rebuild on your 350....then just store away the stock 350 in case you ever want to sell it as a numbers matching car.

Big cars deserve big engines, and need them to feel quick.

4-speed isn't really going to help anything, just force you to have to make 1 more shift all the time...both the 3 and 4 speed are 1 to1 gear in high.

A 5 speed with 5th gear being an overdrive is the way to go.

It really needs some better looking wheels though, man !!!
 
#49 ·
Buick dealers found a way to steal a few deals from Chevy with the Buick Special. Olds and Pontiac did the same. I remember post sedans, dog dish hub caps, etc. It was still a Buick. My buddy had a '58 Special, no power brakes/steering, rubber floor mat. Manual trans rare. Your car probably saved a buyer from another d@*# Chevy.
I saw a good mild performance build in a mag several years ago. It was very complimentary of Buick's 350, stating the advantages over Chevy in that type of build. I'd keep the three on the tree but you stated previous owner did floor conversion. I'd patch the hole in the floor.
Saw a most interesting '53 Olds 98 2 door hardtop. It had a three speed column shift. GM Hydramatic plant burned down and this one probably got whatever was available at the time.
Good luck. That Buick has great lines.
 
#50 ·
I found a shop that is going to rebuild the 350 for about 2,300. I think that's reasonable. I do in some ways think the three on the tree would be cool to put back on the column, but I would like to squeeze a little extra performance out of it and I think a better tranny would be a smart move. That being said, my fist focus is on the engine so depending on how that goes factors in a lot on the tranny.
 
#73 · (Edited)
I would certainly beware of a $2300 engine rebuild at a shop.

Not sure what you're going to get for $2300.00. I just went through a 4.3 V6 and it cost well over $2300 just for parts and machine work. A true shop would want to make money on the parts plus charge labor.

That said - cool old Buick! A real oddball! I had a 71 Centurion 4dr/ht with the 455 many years ago. Bought it for $35 to transplant the engine into a small car yet to be purchased. I re-rung the engine and added a mild Isky cam and Holley spreadbore. Ended up needing a car so put it back in the big Buick and drove it. My kids lovingly called it BUB (Big Ugly Buick). Too big to be quick, but would burn one tire forever. Top end was scary! These engines were 500ft/lb of torque stock. Also an oddball, I had a 62 Old 98 2drHT mint body never rusted or painted or wrecked. GAve it to my son when he was in 8th grade for getting all A's (didn't think he would actually do it, but he did). We stripped the chrome and bumpers off the car for paint when he was 15 (getting ready to get his license) and never finished. Sat around for years and finally his Mom disposed of it when he left home.

Probably not from Pennsylvania originally, right? Smoking could be as simple as a set of old broken umbrella valve stem seals or plugged up oil return hole in the head. When does it smoke? getting on it, coasting, driving steady? How much smoke? What color smoke? How does it run?
 
#53 ·
$2300 does sound reasonable for a rebuild, just not sure that's money well spent. And before I spent it, I'd ask around, or get references from the builder, so you can see if his work is considered good by others in your area.
I think the 4 speed would not only help keep whatever engine you chose in it's powerband, but add to the car's value. A 3 speed will always hurt the value, and I've never heard of anyone ever complaining about shifting one more time. Heck, there's many people shifting twice as many times as your 3 speed, and loving it.
 
#54 ·
I think the 4 speed would not only help keep whatever engine you chose in it's powerband, but add to the car's value. A 3 speed will always hurt the value, and I've never heard of anyone ever complaining about shifting one more time. Heck, there's many people shifting twice as many times as your 3 speed, and loving it.
Actually, it depends on who is setting the value. The four speed was not available in this model from the factory, so to some people, the stock three speed would be worth more. As for performance, it isn't clear that a swap to a four speed is worth it.

The ratios in the M13 three speed are 2.42:1, 1.61:1, and 1:1.

The ratios in an M20 Muncie are 2.52:1, 1.88:1, 1.46:1, and 1:1.

The difference off the line is almost negligible. Keeping the 350 in the power band is a questionable benefit on acceleration vs. the time lost for the extra shift. Once again, if you're going to swap to a non-stock trans, the five speed is a MUCH better choice. Steeper first and OD fifth will make a big difference in driveability.
 
#55 ·
Yes, I did understand the blueprinting. The shop I went to is highly recommended by several people I know. It is where they go to have their race engines built and a few go to have their jeep engines built. The engine has over 130k on it and smokes (could be rings or could be valve seals) when first started but stops after about half an hour of driving. I am looking at worst case scenario for the bottom end. If when it gets tore down if the bottom end is good it is being left alone. No, I have not been under it yet to check the tranny. I assumed that would be easier to do when the engine and tranny are pulled out all in one unit. At the very least though the heads need ported and polished, a cam, and a new intake. My logic was while that was all being done there is no reason not to check the bottom end and if it needs it do it as well.
 
#57 ·
Not to sound like an idiot, but I don't know enough about rears to understand the end result. I understand that the numbers are revolutions, but what I don't understand is what each on means for the end result. Does that equate to lower RPMS, more power, better gas milage?
 
#59 ·
The stock heads is mainly for visual reasons. I have always personally liked the looks of them better. If I thought the stock intake could be worked with to get almost as much flow as an after market intake I would keep that as well for visuals, I just highly doubt enough can be done with the stock intake.
 
#63 ·
You have to check out Horsepower TV for the other 350 small block. I thought I saw mag article on same subject but can't find it. Many good tips I'm sure your guy knows or maybe not. Pay attention to Ford 460 main seal, etc. Looks like their sponsors helped a little much. Don't know if you want a Thumper.
 
#65 ·
I am sure at this point I've made myself sound like a complete idiot, so I do apologize for that. Anyway, it is my understanding that in 69 the 350 came from the factory with 230hp and I believe around 355ft/lbs of torque. I understand that for cash value it is usually better to not mess with anything and to stay as original as humanly possible. That factored in when I decided to keep the 350. I also don't think having the heads worked would be that much of an issue since they would still be the original heads. I could be wrong though. According to factory owners manuals the three speed was the standard for the car and an auto was an option, so I have no reason to doubt the car came with the three speed. I do have to admit the idea of a column shifter is appealing but only in the regards that its uncommon.
 
#69 ·
If Buick is anything like Oldsmobile, the cam would be different as well. Compression is likely higher with the 4bbl motor also - usually the 2bbl motors were 9.0:1 and the 4bbl motors were 10:1 or so. In any case, those HP numbers are gross numbers, measured with the engine on a dyno, no accessories dragging it down, optimized bellmouth inlet on the carb, and headers. Starting with the 1971 model year, automakers went to net HP ratings, which dropped the numbers by about 20-30%. If you plan to tear the motor down, I'd get the heads done and use the aftermarket intake as I noted above.
 
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