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Old 01-18-2007, 08:14 PM
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1970 chevy 350 w/441 heads?????

Hi all, new guy here

I have a few questions, and need the opinions of the chevy engine guys.

Im getting ready to do a budget rebuild on a 70 350 TBB coded 255hp, basically staying stock, with new pistons etc.. I have a performer intake to replace the stock unit, and a new quadrajet. With the stock 3932441 heads, what cam would you recommend. The vehicle is a 1970 chevy shortbed truck. I also have an extra 200 4r to replace the 3sp manual, and the rear gear is stock 3.07 posi.
I'd be happy to get 300hp, a somewhat lopey idle, and decent gas mileage, if possible?

I know its cheesy/cheap parts, but this is the kit Im going to use. The cam choices are listed
http://www.northernautoparts.com/Pro...&CartId=820177

Any help appreciated

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Last edited by FN2XLR8; 01-18-2007 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 01-18-2007, 09:48 PM
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This kit uses "rebuilder" pistons that have .020 off the compression height, which will kill compression and quench. With the larger chambers of the 441 heads, the ratio will be so low the engine will be a slug.
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:14 PM
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What if I upgraded to the 125 domers?
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:15 PM
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Roger that.

By the time you add enough "upgrades" to the basic kit to get what you want, you will have a not-so-great bargain.
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Old 01-18-2007, 10:51 PM
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Fair enough.........Can you recommend a kit that will get me 300hp reasonable?
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:06 AM
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http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te.../photo_14.html

You can do 300 but it will be a stretch with those tiny heads, see site^.

200r4 won't last long.

Avoid dome pistons taller than .120 in a SBC.

Vortec heads, a CompCams 214* single pattern cam on 108* LSA, .520* lift, will do the job nicely. Need a Vortec intake.
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Old 01-19-2007, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleVision
This kit uses "rebuilder" pistons that have .020 off the compression height, which will kill compression and quench. With the larger chambers of the 441 heads, the ratio will be so low the engine will be a slug.

Agreed, the 441 heads are "decent" for a mild 350 budget engine, not great but you can do worse. It sounds like you're on a tight budget so I wouldn't set any magic HP numbers I'd just try to get the most bang for my buck. Starting with what you already have to work with a little pocket porting can help those 441's and a good quality cast flat top piston will put compression around 8.7 to 1 with a standard .041" Fel-Pro head gasket assuming a deck height of .025", if it's less than that you pick up a little compression, not a lot though. If the deck height is shorter or you use a thinner head gasket with the flat tops you'll also gain some quench which helps. Keep your cam timing on the short side, something like the Craner Energizer 266 or Comp Cams 268HE will give you a mild "lope" without killing your bottom end but if you plan to run a 200-4R with a 3.07 rear gear you'll want a smaller cam. Also with 8.7 compression I'd be looking at a smaller cam anyway. You should still be able to run on 87 Octane.

You may not make 300 (Flywheel) HP with the above combo but it should run decent, especially if you replace that 3.07 with a 3.70. The stock 200-4R isn't going to take much abuse but they can be made to take a lot of power. A good tranny man should be able to rebuild yours with a few improvements without breaking the bank. If that's not in the budget then I'd go with a TH350 for now and save the 200 until later then have it beefed up and get those lower gears.

Maybe you're not on a tight budget but if you are this combo should at least make a fun driver.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:12 AM
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Only reason I considered the 441 casting's was that its the original motor to the truck. Not that that makes a huge difference in values. It doesn't seem to matter when it comes to trucks, as apposed to musclecars.
Im open to different castings, to achieve 300hp.
The truck is in pieces right now, undergoing a frame off, and Ive been running a well built 455 buick and equally built 200 4r for a year and a half now with no problems. But I will most likely be selling this truck at the end of the summer, and Im sure it will scare the chevy guys not seeing a chevy motor under the hood.
The main objective is to have a decent motor, nothing exotic, just respectable, and without investing a bunch of dough
As for the 455/2004r, it will go in my next shortbed project, I just love getting 13-17 mpg with a healthy big block

Last edited by FN2XLR8; 01-19-2007 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 08:57 AM
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Decent gas mileage and a lopey idle don't go together very well.
A truck with 3.08 gears and a lopey idle also don't go well together.

You need to build low rpm torque, not hp, for a truck and highway gears

FYI, stock gear for that year is 3.08 and it isn't a LSD.

I would recommend using the performer intake with the performer cam.

The Q-jet is a good choice.

The stock heads are killing power. A little bowl work (under the valves) could add another 10-20hp. Should be able to make 300 crank hp and 350 ftlbs with some headers, bowl work, and the Edelbrock Performer cam. However, a new set of 180cc iron eagle darts would be much better and would get you past the 300hp mark even with a small cam.

Check out this engine, 350cid with 285hp. Looks like it is using 8.5:1 cr and a performer cam. But no bowl work, which is important to do.

http://www.sallee-chevrolet.com/fram...rformance.html

If you use the 200r then a lower gear can be used which will allow for a bigger cam. But don't use a bigger cam until the gears are changed. And a bigger cam requires more compression. So it is a balancing act that should be setup all at once.

If you don't plan on changing gears then stay with a small cam.
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Old 01-19-2007, 09:41 AM
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re: 1970 chevy 350 w/441 heads?????

You diffinitely don't want to use a 200R4 in a truck. Those were meant for smaller cars like a nova. Sure the can be built to handle a massive amount of horsepower, but in a full size truck you'll probably fry it real quick.
The 700R4 would be better in the long run, or a TH350 with a Gear Vendor unit behind it.
If you go with the 700R4, do yourself a favor and buy an automatic control unit for about $60. I have a friend who forgot to flip the toggle switch a couple times and destroyed his tranny in less than a week from punching it at the stoplights.
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Old 01-19-2007, 11:54 AM
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I would run the 441 castings and build a fun to drive p/u that makes a guy smile when he sticks it to the floor and enjoy it and sell it in the summers end.

what about the idea of sticking in a aftermarket cast 400 crank and doing some head work to them 441 castings ? especially if your gona sell the truck.
build something like one of these 1st seven combos ?

how bout some of these 383 combos running 441 castings with stock 400 5.565 rods and cast crank with forged pistons.

http://ryanscarpage.50megs.com/combos1.html

or why not use a runable set of salvage yard vortec heads ?


or build one of these 275 or 300+ HP combos with the 441 castings,

Displacement: 350 cu. in.
Carburetor: Demon Speed Demon 750
Heads: GM #441, with 1.94/1.50 in. valves
Camshaft: hydraulic, with 224 of duration @ 0.050 in. of lift, and 0.447 in. of lift
Pistons: cast dished
Rods: stock
Crank: cast
Comp. Ratio: 7.5:18.0:1

MAX HP: 324 @ 5200
MAX Torque: 363 @ 3900





Displacement: 357 cu. in.
Carburetor: Holley 600
Heads: GM, with 1.94/1.50 in. valves, 76 cc combustion chambers, and a 3-angle valve job.
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Camshaft: Elgin hydraulic, with 0.488 in. of lift
Rockers: Elgin
Headers: 1 7/8 in.
Pistons: Powerhouse
Rods: stock
Crank: cast
Distributor: HEI with MSD
Timing: 36
Comp. Ratio: 9.7:1

MAX HP: 360 @ 5000
MAX Torque: 394 @ 4500

Displacement: 350 cu. in.
Carburetor: Quadrajet
Heads: GM #882 heads, rebuilt, with 2.02/1.60 in. valves.
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Camshaft: GM stock hydraulic, with 194/203 of duration @ 0.050 in. of lift and 0.390/0.410 in. of lift.
Rockers: roller, 1.5:1
Headers: Hooker 1 5/8 in.
Pistons: Speed Pro forged
Rods: Federal Mogul
Crank: Federal Mogul
Distributor: HEI
Timing: 34
Comp. Ratio: 9.0:1

MAX HP: 275 @ 4400
MAX Torque: 351 @ 3500

Displacement: 350 cu. in.
Carburetor: Quadrajet
Heads: GM #882 heads, rebuilt, with 2.02/1.60 in. valves.
Intake: Edelbrock Performer
Camshaft: Federal Mogul, with 214/224 of duration @ 0.050 in. of lift and 0.472/0.496 in. of lift.
Rockers: roller, 1.5:1
Headers: Hooker 1 5/8 in.
Pistons: Speed Pro forged
Rods: Federal Mogul
Crank: Federal Mogul
Distributor: HEI
Comp. Ratio: 9.0:1










just some ideas

Mustangsaly

Last edited by Mustangsaly; 01-19-2007 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 01-19-2007, 12:55 PM
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[QUOTE=hyarbour]You diffinitely don't want to use a 200R4 in a truck. Those were meant for smaller cars like a nova. Sure the can be built to handle a massive amount of horsepower, but in a full size truck you'll probably fry it real quick.

You didn't understand my post. I have been running a 2004r behind my 455 for almost a year and a half now, with no problems. This is the same unit I purchased, for less than the previous owner paid, as he never got around to installing it.

Street/Strip 2004R lock up with brake.
This has a Monte SS CZ hi-po valvebody (model), and the trans has all my usual parts. 550 and 400 boost valves, pump ring kit, Alto clutches (extra throughout) and wide Red band with our shift calibration.(shift kit)
This unit is a lock up with a big servo, and transbrake. The input shaft and drum are hardened. Has a stock pan with a custom baffle for fluid control, and a drain plug installed.
This trans will have nice firm shifts, and shift at nearly 5500 at WOT. Perfect for a ported heads and cam car.
Biggest difference between this and the BRF is a later WOT upshift, 5200`ish vs 5500, and a slightly earlier third gear while cruising. (most people never notice) With all correct wiring and switches for a GN, with the correct black plug.
This transmission is built to run into the 10`s with the right converter it will give years of trouble free service.
Price on this unit is $1500 + $150 shipping in the U.S. (continental 48) This price includes the core charge.
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:10 PM
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[QUOTE=454C10]Decent gas mileage and a lopey idle don't go together very well.
A truck with 3.08 gears and a lopey idle also don't go well together.

I should have said, noticeable idle, like a comp 260, or 268


FYI, stock gear for that year is 3.08 and it isn't a LSD.


Correct, I mis-typed, its a TFO coded 12 bolt

BTW, thanks for your recommendations, appreciate it
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:14 PM
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Thanks Mustangsaly............very helpful
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Old 01-19-2007, 01:27 PM
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[QUOTE=hyarbour]You diffinitely don't want to use a 200R4 in a truck. Those were meant for smaller cars like a nova. Sure the can be built to handle a massive amount of horsepower, but in a full size truck you'll probably fry it real quick.



Sorry, but you didn't understand my post, I have been running a 200 4r behind my 455 for 1 1/2 years prior to resto, with no problems.

I realize there's always going to be a disagreement between the 700 and the 200's, but I can tell you, if built correctly there a better choice than the 700, from what Ive read, but Im no expert by any means.
I got lucky and bought a unit on the cheap, that someone purchased for there buick GN, and was forced to sell for financial reasons. All I can tell you is, I haven't grenaded it yet
Here's what I was told the unit basically consists of:

Street/Strip 2004R lock up with brake.
This has a Monte SS CZ hi-po valvebody (model), and the trans has all my usual parts. 550 and 400 boost valves, pump ring kit, Alto clutches (extra throughout) and wide Red band with our shift calibration.(shift kit)
This unit is a lock up with a big servo, and transbrake. The input shaft and drum are hardened. Has a stock pan with a custom baffle for fluid control, and a drain plug installed.
This trans will have nice firm shifts, and shift at nearly 5500 at WOT. Perfect for a ported heads and cam car.
Biggest difference between this and the BRF is a later WOT upshift, 5200`ish vs 5500, and a slightly earlier third gear while cruising. (most people never notice) With all correct wiring and switches for a GN, with the correct black plug.
This transmission is built to run into the 10`s with the right converter it will give years of trouble free service.
Price on this unit is $1500 + $150 shipping in the U.S. (continental 48) This price includes the core charge.

Last edited by FN2XLR8; 01-19-2007 at 01:38 PM.
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