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Old 04-23-2013, 01:52 PM
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1976 Malibu Engine Rebuild

I have a 1976 Malibu Classic that belonged to my great grandfather. He bought it new in '76 and it's been in the family since. I'm wanting to rebuild the engine, and eventually the entire car. I would like some of your advice on the direction and parts selection I'm considering.

I want it to be a reliable driver. I also want it to have some getup and go. The current 350 is a dog. I would be happy with 300 hp give or take, but if possible, I would like it to run on cat pee gas. 87-89 octane. We have 93 here, but I'd prefer it to be okay on gas. Tranny in the car is a th350, with either 3.08 gears or high 2's. Not quite sure.

Having said that. I plan to have the 350 bored .030 and will have the machine shop go over the entire engine. I will be reusing the crank and connecting rods. Might upgrade the rod bolts to ARP.

My goal is to create 9:1 compression with 5+ cc flat top pistons...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-8kh345acp30


...and 72 cc Dart Iron Eagle heart shaped chamber 165cc heads.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-10021171s

I'll have the deck set to either .015 or 0. Squish will be between .035 - .055

I plan to use stock 1.5 style rockers, and the stock stall. Here are a couple Summit camshafts I'm considering.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k00052

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k00172


I plan to use a Eddie Performer EPS intake...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2701


...and top it off with a 600 cfm carb. Possibly a quadrajet for added gas savings when cruising.

I had thought about going the Vortec head route, but I'd like to retain the stock valve covers and all the emissions stuff.

I'll use the stock ex. manifolds and will upgrade the distributor to a HEI. Everything else will remain the same and even keep a somewhat stock looking appearance under the hood.

Last but not last, I would like the spark curve to stay pretty close to stock.


Your thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt

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Old 04-23-2013, 02:03 PM
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Goal HP is 325-350. I would be happy with that. The car currently has dual 2.5 exhaust, no cats, and turbo thrush mufflers.

Also, what thermostat temp should I run? 180? 195?


Thanks

Last edited by V8 Super Beetle; 04-23-2013 at 02:05 PM. Reason: Added question.
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:44 PM
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Those cars are very heavy. Not a good platform for performance or fuel economy.
Cams are way too big. Poor economy. Poor with the typical 2.56:1 stock gears. Poor with stock exhaust.
You can find the axle ratio code on the RPO data plate. Probabily in the gloove box, under side of the truck lid
or under the spare tire cover.

This car is worth the most if you keep it in 100% stock form. If you hot rod it it has no value.
I would build the engine OEM stock.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 04-23-2013 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:23 PM
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I'd bet money I could get one race ready @ 2,700lbs.The Malibu's have terrorized the middle bracket's for yrs with their OEM four link rear suspensions and their ability to hook with Moroso trick springs.

Typical wt of a stock one is between 3,200 to 3,500lbs.

Their are a number of them running in outlaw classes too.
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Old 04-23-2013, 04:38 PM
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Buck Kinney flogs those cars big time here. They "hook".His street boys are running 12.0s @ 105-106.
do the math,those are low output engines. 350 hp with cast iron exhaust is like a 400 hp engine.
Tech has a great recipe for what you want with different heads,,,
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Super Beetle View Post
I have a 1976 Malibu Classic that belonged to my great grandfather. He bought it new in '76 and it's been in the family since. I'm wanting to rebuild the engine, and eventually the entire car. I would like some of your advice on the direction and parts selection I'm considering.

I want it to be a reliable driver. I also want it to have some getup and go. The current 350 is a dog. I would be happy with 300 hp give or take, but if possible, I would like it to run on cat pee gas. 87-89 octane. We have 93 here, but I'd prefer it to be okay on gas. Tranny in the car is a th350, with either 3.08 gears or high 2's. Not quite sure.

Having said that. I plan to have the 350 bored .030 and will have the machine shop go over the entire engine. I will be reusing the crank and connecting rods. Might upgrade the rod bolts to ARP.

My goal is to create 9:1 compression with 5+ cc flat top pistons...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/slp-8kh345acp30


...and 72 cc Dart Iron Eagle heart shaped chamber 165cc heads.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-10021171s

I'll have the deck set to either .015 or 0. Squish will be between .035 - .055

I plan to use stock 1.5 style rockers, and the stock stall. Here are a couple Summit camshafts I'm considering.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k00052

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-k00172


I plan to use a Eddie Performer EPS intake...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2701


...and top it off with a 600 cfm carb. Possibly a quadrajet for added gas savings when cruising.

I had thought about going the Vortec head route, but I'd like to retain the stock valve covers and all the emissions stuff.

I'll use the stock ex. manifolds and will upgrade the distributor to a HEI. Everything else will remain the same and even keep a somewhat stock looking appearance under the hood.

Last but not last, I would like the spark curve to stay pretty close to stock.


Your thoughts and suggestions would be much appreciated.


Thanks,

Matt
Not that the 1976 350 isn't a dog but those cars really suffer from the technology of the day where a turbo 350 is mated to a 2.56 rear axle. These were designed to hit splendid fuel mileage at a constant 55 mph on the EPA's chassis dynamometer. Real world performance had nothing to do with how they were built.

To correct this problem would take a 454 not just a little more power out of the 350. Been there, done that so I'm not just passing gas on the subject.

I really doubt that these things are ever going to bring a fortune when Barrett/Jackson auctions them to some collector, so I wouldn't be too concerned if I was waying that against wanting to keep and use a family heir loom.

With that thought in mind I'd start with the transmission and rear-end. I'd install a 700R4 and probably either a 3.08 or even a 3.23 gear set into the rear axle. The 700R4 has a low gear of 3.06 to 1 for getting launched from a stop against the TH350 of 2.52. This will greatly improve stop and go fuel economy. At the other end of the scale the 700R4 has an overdrive 4th of .7 to 1 which compared to 1:1 high in the TH350 reduces freeway cruise RPM by 30 percent which will be even less ratio than your 2.56 rear currently delivers. About 2.12 when using a 3.08 rear end or about 2.26 with a 3.23 rear end. On top of that; the 700R4 brings a lockup converter such that when cruising the freeway it will eliminate converter slip which on the flat roads of Houston would be another 100 to 150 RPM reduction with a stock stall converter.

For your suggested engine mods, you will quickly find that replacing the heads with modern combustion chambers like the Vortec and its many aftermarket clones will add 20 to 40 horses and torque foot pounds depending upon the cam just by themselves due to subtle but profound changes in combustion chamber shapes. There are aftermarket heads such as the 190 cc port aluminum ProComps that would allow the use of the EPS intake which I think is an excellent choice for a street cruiser. I'd recommend either the Edlebrock/Carter or the Q-Jet for carburetion. Or convert to OEM fuel injection, this really works better with super high cruising ratios than a carb because it doesn't depend upon air flow velocity through a venturi for figuring out the fuel metering, rather it uses sensor and a computer. So the fuel metering of EFI is much more stable and consistent with less slop in the transitions of throttle position. All this adds up to changing the 350 from a 9 to 15 mile per gallon engine to an 18 to 22 mpg engine.

I don't like your cam selection at all, these are old fashion long, did I say looong, ramp cams that keep the intake valve off the seat till mighty late in the compression cycle. They don't work well with low RPM engines as the late to seat intake valve allows the pressure from the rising piston to reverse pump the inducted mixture back up the intake and out the carb. The carb is a careless device and mixture pumped out (this is reversion) gets fuel added, that fuel rich mixture when sucked back in gets more fuel added. This again is something EFI doesn't contribute to. The answer to this is found in short ramp, fast lifting cams. The Comp XE262H is about a perfect solution as it gets the valves on and off the seat with a lot less ramp but holds almost the same .050 duration as the cams you're looking at.

If you're going deep enough to replace pistons, the better solution is a D dish with the smaller 64 cc head. You can dial in the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) with the cam's intake closing point measured at .006 inch lift to about 8.0 to 8.3 or .4 as how that will reflect back to the dimensions of the Static Compression Ratio (SCR). It is most easy to build a powerful and fuel economical engine using modern small chamber heads and D dish pistons. You want the pistons to be a hyper-eutectic high silicon material as these experience very small dimension changes with temperature so they can be run with very little skirt clearance. This not only makes a quieter running engine, but it stabilizes the ring package where they meet the cylinder wall so that blow by and oil consumption is greatly reduced. All this adds up to being able to run more compression for the octane of fuel used. These days it is not uncommon to run up close to a static ratio in the high 9's on the street which adds to the engine's thermal efficiency which you see in better mileage and more power and torque and this can happen on regular to mid-grade unleaded.

If you go this route a multi-spark distributor is a worthy investment. Even with fairly high compression ratios, when idling and certainly when cruising around 2000 RPMs the throttle is hardly open so the mixture isn't very dense, this results in a mixture that can be hard to light off and burns too slowly. The multi-spark feature of things like the MSD ignition greatly improve the chances of getting the mixture to catch fire, this reduces miss and late fires which again improves mileage and power.

So this would basically bring the car up to late 1980’s early 1990's technology which is already a quantum improvement over 1976. Making this a lot more decent running machine without changing its essential character.

Bogie

Last edited by oldbogie; 04-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
Not that the 1976 350 isn't a dog but those cars really suffer from the technology of the day where a turbo 350 is mated to a 2.56 rear axle. These were designed to hit splendid fuel mileage at a constant 55 mph on the EPA's chassis dynamometer. Real world performance had nothing to do with how they were built.

To correct this problem would take a 454 not just a little more power out of the 350. Been there, done that so I'm not just passing gas on the subject.

I really doubt that these things are ever going to bring a fortune when Barrett/Jackson auctions them to some collector, so I wouldn't be too concerned if I was waying that against wanting to keep and use a family heir loom.

With that thought in mind I'd start with the transmission and rear-end. I'd install a 700R4 and probably either a 3.08 or even a 3.23 gear set into the rear axle. The 700R4 has a low gear of 3.06 to 1 for getting launched from a stop against the TH350 of 2.52. This will greatly improve stop and go fuel economy. At the other end of the scale the 700R4 has an overdrive 4th of .7 to 1 which compared to 1:1 high in the TH350 reduces freeway cruise RPM by 30 percent which will be even less ratio than your 2.56 rear currently delivers. About 2.12 when using a 3.08 rear end or about 2.26 with a 3.23 rear end. On top of that; the 700R4 brings a lockup converter such that when cruising the freeway it will eliminate converter slip which on the flat roads of Houston would be another 100 to 150 RPM reduction with a stock stall converter.

For your suggested engine mods, you will quickly find that replacing the heads with modern combustion chambers like the Vortec and its many aftermarket clones will add 20 to 40 horses and torque foot pounds depending upon the cam just by themselves due to subtle but profound changes in combustion chamber shapes. There are aftermarket heads such as the 190 cc port aluminum ProComps that would allow the use of the EPS intake which I think is an excellent choice for a street cruiser. I'd recommend either the Edlebrock/Carter or the Q-Jet for carburetion. Or convert to OEM fuel injection, this really works better with super high cruising ratios than a carb because it doesn't depend upon air flow velocity through a venturi for figuring out the fuel metering, rather it uses sensor and a computer. So the fuel metering of EFI is much more stable and consistent with less slop in the transitions of throttle position. All this adds up to changing the 350 from a 9 to 15 mile per gallon engine to an 18 to 22 mpg engine.

I don't like your cam selection at all, these are old fashion long, did I say looong, ramp cams that keep the intake valve off the seat till mighty late in the compression cycle. They don't work well with low RPM engines as the late to seat intake valve allows the pressure from the rising piston to reverse pump the inducted mixture back up the intake and out the carb. The carb is a careless device and mixture pumped out (this is reversion) gets fuel added, that fuel rich mixture when sucked back in gets more fuel added. This again is something EFI doesn't contribute to. The answer to this is found in short ramp, fast lifting cams. The Comp XE262H is about a perfect solution as it gets the valves on and off the seat with a lot less ramp but holds almost the same .050 duration as the cams you're looking at.

If you're going deep enough to replace pistons, the better solution is a D dish with the smaller 64 cc head. You can dial in the Dynamic Compression Ratio (DCR) with the cam's intake closing point measured at .006 inch lift to about 8.0 to 8.3 or .4 as how that will reflect back to the dimensions of the Static Compression Ratio (SCR). It is most easy to build a powerful and fuel economical engine using modern small chamber heads and D dish pistons. You want the pistons to be a hyper-eutectic high silicon material as these experience very small dimension changes with temperature so they can be run with very little skirt clearance. This not only makes a quieter running engine, but it stabilizes the ring package where they meet the cylinder wall so that blow by and oil consumption is greatly reduced. All this adds up to being able to run more compression for the octane of fuel used. These days it is not uncommon to run up close to a static ratio in the high 9's on the street which adds to the engine's thermal efficiency which you see in better mileage and more power and torque and this can happen on regular to mid-grade unleaded.

If you go this route a multi-spark distributor is a worthy investment. Even with fairly high compression ratios, when idling and certainly when cruising around 2000 RPMs the throttle is hardly open so the mixture isn't very dense, this results in a mixture that can be hard to light off and burns too slowly. The multi-spark feature of things like the MSD ignition greatly improve the chances of getting the mixture to catch fire, this reduces miss and late fires which again improves mileage and power.

So this would basically bring the car up to late 1980’s early 1990's technology which is already a quantum improvement over 1976. Making this a lot more decent running machine without changing its essential character.

Bogie
Thanks Bogie. I like the idea of the 700R4 and actually started looking into that. I probably should've mentioned I really don't want to spend more than 4-5K on the engine, tranny, and rear. How much difference in economy would there be in going with say some Vortecs and using a D-cup pistons vs. the iron eagles, which have a modern heart shaped chamber, and flat top pistons? Wouldn't the better selection be flat tops?

What cam would you suggest for what I'm looking for?

I would like to stick to around 1K for the expense of heads. Are the Iron Eagles 165 not a good head for what I'm looking to do?

Thanks for all the help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
I'd bet money I could get one race ready @ 2,700lbs.The Malibu's have terrorized the middle bracket's for yrs with their OEM four link rear suspensions and their ability to hook with Moroso trick springs.

Typical wt of a stock one is between 3,200 to 3,500lbs.

Their are a number of them running in outlaw classes too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Buck Kinney flogs those cars big time here. They "hook".His street boys are running 12.0s @ 105-106.
do the math,those are low output engines. 350 hp with cast iron exhaust is like a 400 hp engine.
Tech has a great recipe for what you want with different heads,,,
I'm open to recipes. Interesting. I didn't know they hooked well when setup for performance. Performance would be nice, but I'm not trying to get too crazy with it. LOL, making it run 12's would be nice, but how much HP would the 350 need to make?

Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
Those cars are very heavy. Not a good platform for performance or fuel economy.
Cams are way too big. Poor economy. Poor with the typical 2.56:1 stock gears. Poor with stock exhaust.
You can find the axle ratio code on the RPO data plate. Probabily in the gloove box, under side of the truck lid
or under the spare tire cover.

This car is worth the most if you keep it in 100% stock form. If you hot rod it it has no value.
I would build the engine OEM stock.
I understand what you mean. I'm not really out to make it a hotrod, or a gas sipper but I don't want to rebuild it to OEM form simple because there's better technology out there. The car will stay in the family and I don't plan on selling it. So from a resale stand point, I'm not worried about that. Besides, it's a 4 door. I just want to give it some pep and for the family to be able to enjoy it too.
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbogie View Post
The answer to this is found in short ramp, fast lifting cams. The Comp XE262H is about a perfect solution as it gets the valves on and off the seat with a lot less ramp but holds almost the same .050 duration as the cams you're looking at.
Ahhhh, it's early... thanks for the suggestion!
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Old 04-24-2013, 08:45 AM
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Sounds like from what your describing something in the range of 350 to 325 would be prefect.(yeah in the form of a question)Not peak hp but nice flat power output.Really shouldn't be that hard to get with the right combo.
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:58 AM
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Sounds like from what your describing something in the range of 350 to 325 would be prefect.(yeah in the form of a question)Not peak hp but nice flat power output.Really shouldn't be that hard to get with the right combo.
Sounds about right. Will the combo I listed get me there using the XE262?
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:24 AM
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Get some 4.10's. Then it will have
"pep"
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:37 AM
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Some 3.73 gears are good cruise gears that will help on the bottom end.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:54 PM
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Thanks gang.

I'm rethinking my head selection. Are AFR's reliable with the XE262? What kind of HP numbers could I expect with 8.5:1 and would it run on 87 octane?

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/afr-0911
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:05 PM
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Its a 4 door grocery getter.. Put a nice stereo in it and enjoy it for what it is.
Daily transportation.
Find something light weight to hot rod.
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:07 PM
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Its a 4 door grocery getter.. Put a nice stereo in it and enjoy it for what it is.
Daily transportation.
Find something light weight to hot rod.
I already did.
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