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1978 Camaro Makeover

4K views 34 replies 11 participants last post by  dogwater 
#1 ·
Hey guys,

I put together this parts list and want to run it by y'all to see if these parts will be compatible. I want to make a high compression 350 that I can put together myself (no crate engines, please) and rebuild the Turbo 350 behind it, and also add in limited slip. I'd like to also redo the interior, and chassis. Basically it's all I'd ever want to put on this car.

It's a Google Sheet document that has all the parts listed with their prices and the quantity of each that I want. This is basically been put together for the past month, so go easy on me. My budget this summer will be about $12,000.

Here are the problems with the car-
Engine is bad
Tranny is meh
Rear end is open...
Gauges don't work anymore
Fuel system is leaky
Body damage (stupid storms and tree branches..)
Brakes are AWFUL

Other than that, it's a good car with 62,000 original miles, and I'm the second owner. Any suggestions?

355 Parts List (Google Sheets)
 
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#2 ·
My take on this is that you are destined to waste all your money on a "money pit" that will not appraise for anything near what you have spent on it. Been there, done that too many times to count.
I was looking through the craigslist offerings in a few of the Texas cities and towns and found several '98-'02 Z-28's and Trans Am's with the LS1 powertrain, both in automatics and 6-speed manuals that could be bought complete and running for less than you will have in a warmed-over '78. Here, for example, is a convertible in Plano. CHICK MAGNET.
1999 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am

Step back and take a look at the big picture. Do you want a nice ride that you can be driving right now or do you want to have insane money invested in a '78 that will constantly be suckin' 100 dollar bills out of your wallet?
 
#3 · (Edited)
350 VORTEC longblock $2,000
Intake $125
Reuse your distributor and carb
Fuel System: $500 - 1000
Brakes: $1200
Rear Axle rebuild $600
Trans: 4L60e or 700r4 $1800-??
New wiring harness and fuses etc $600
Shifter for trans: $500
UMI suspension kit or similar: $1200
Paint?
Rims?
Tires?
Gastank?
Exhaust?
Alternator?
Radiator?
Seats?
Headliner?
Carpet?
Dashpad?
Console lid?
Steering wheel?
Air Conditioning?
New Glass?
Gauges?

My point is you've got all the bragging rights; and budgeted $21 for sparkplug washers...but no fuel pump.

Its the little incidentals that are going to kill you. Skip the bare block, et al. Buy the vortec crate long block. Its already a roller cam engine. Put a vortec-specific intake on there and a mid-lift roller cam. It needs an electric fuel pump.

You have a torque converter listed, but will this work with your rear gear and your cam to make a well thought out system?
 
#4 ·
Tech- I'm not selling this car. Its my first car and I plan to have it until it literally rusts into nothingness. I'm sure I don't want any car past the year 1979.

AutoGear- True, but the fact is, I already have a fuel pump and regulator. Anything not listed is what I already have as of now. Notice I listed no distributor, either. Also, no intake.


I'm looking to make this a nice, drag-style car that I can use as a daily driver. (Yes, I know) I really don't care about gas mileage whatsoever. Like I really don't. I don't drive too much, maybe 10 miles a day. I just want this to be the dream car I have wanted since I was a kid. A crazy overpowered V8 '78 Camaro. And tech, all I have to do is rev the car and its a "chick magnet" lol, I have custom dual exhaust and cutouts.
 
#5 ·
A crazy overpowered V8 '78 Camaro.
OK then, but if that's the case, I'd begin with a 454 big block and stroke it 1/4". There is little point in sending in a boy to do a man's job. Locate some 781 or 049 oval port heads, install larger valves and hang on. Build it around 9.5:1 static compression ratio with a tight squish, 0.035" to 0.045", and run it on pump gas. I can help you with all the math and parts selection. Just ask. :thumbup:
 
#6 · (Edited)
. What was the current engine in there? I'd suggest:


. Since buying a rotating assembly, might as well go a 383" one...


. Since buying a block and rotating assembly, might as well buy ones that match and skip the rear seal adapter...

. Skip the hokey low lift for OEM-style lifters Thumpr cam and OEM adapter stuff and put a real roller cam in there with high lift for power... for high lift style linked retro-style roller lifters (like shown in your listed cam kit, but don't actually come with it)... step back about 10 degrees on duration to about 234/244... to better match heads and for more daily drivability... Howard's real roller cam/real roller lifters at a better price...


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-cl120605-12?seid=srese1&gclid=CMvb98GWjsUCFQoKaQodRzMA2A

. Switch to custom built torque converter:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/GM-350-TH350-TH400-Powerglide-Stall-2400-Torque-Converter-9-5-/271837925321

. 650 CFM carb. too small for your build, jump to 750 CFM... What's on there now?


. Gauges prolly work if hooked up...
.
 
#9 ·
You guys are great!

Alright, I don't want to put a big block in because it's just.... a big block. I don't know if it will fit in there.....it may look like there's a lot of room (enough for me to stand in it when I'm tinkering) but a big block may just destroy the car. It's originally a small block 305 car, and the last owner foolishly put an RPM intake with a Holley DP 750 on top. Yes, seriously. The thing idled at 1500, any lower and it would die. Anyways, these are good pieces of advice. I have shorty headers, so I don't have to worry about that. The cam is a good idea, but I'd like 108 degrees of lobe separation to get that nice lopey idle. (I'll need to budget in a vacuum canister as well, I suppose) Now, I know some people absolutely LOVE crate engines. I'm one who does, too. When I'm in a rush, though. I like to do it myself, save money, not time.

I don't want a 383 because of that stroke:bore ratio, it just doesn't seem right to me. I want as short a stroke as possible, while still maintaining a good displacement. Also, on there now is an Edelbrock 600cfm Performer.

Here is what I'd like to have on this build-

Short stroke while maintaining displacement
Engine can't be more than about $6,000
Radical cam for a lopey idle (I want to vibrate other cars at the stoplight)
High compression (>9.5 but <11) ((flat top or dome pistons))
Torque converter doesn't matter to me, so long as it works with 3.73 gearing
Aluminum heads
MUST be a roller cam

Honestly though, if a big block is what it takes, then I will do that.

Also, if the gauges weren't hooked up in the first place I'd look like a total idiot lol, they're all hooked up, but just not working anymore, so I need all new ones. (Plus I wanna go electric sender units as much as possible...modernise the thing a little bit)

Basically, this is just my dream first car. I want this to be something I can look at at the car show and say, "Yeah, I built that myself. All of it." and be telling the truth. This car is my baby, and we all know how that feels. I have others, yeah, but this one takes priority. (I have a '40 Chevy, '54 Chevy, Model T's and A's, an International Scout, a '38 American LaFrance, and some 'Vettes) but this Camaro is what takes the #1 spot right now. I'm basically redoing everything with it, so I wanna do it right. That's why I'm spending so much on this. I want brand-new parts only, I've had bad experience with used parts, and I want quality.

Remember one thing, I want this to be kinda streetable (at least where I can drive it on a nice, dry day, I won't be driving her in the rain) so that I can pass safety inspections. I don't care about gas AT ALL. It's worth every penny to me. Back last summer with the 305, I was spending $20 a day in gas for about 2 months. And I still had plenty to do other things, so gas isn't what I'm worried about. What I'm worried about is this thing lasting another 40 years past this. Another 62,000 miles, and more.

Again, thanks you guys!! I can't get enough of y'all's advice!
 
#10 · (Edited)
A mild BBC will get you everything you want better than a more radical SBC AND you will have NO gas mileage to speak of!!! LOL!


Seriously, you seem to want an old school style engine. Go 427 L88 style but in a 10.5-1 454-468ci with aluminum heads and a roller cam...guaranteed to be a thrill to drive and get ALL the right noises from. EPS high rise 2 plane, 850vac sec, Hooker long tubes, MSD ign...believe me, it WILL be a runner. Forgot about the trans suggestion...a turbo 400 with a shift kit, 2500stall convertor, 3.73's in the rear and hang on!
 
#11 ·
I'd disagree that a '78 Camaro is a waste of money; especially compared to a '98 or that era. Although the late 2nd gen Camaros aren't worth what a 1st gen, or early 2nd gen are, they are certainly beginning to go up in value very quickly in recent times. How much you invest in it is your decision, and that's rarely based on whether it's going to sell for what you put in. We love our cars, and most of us do this as a hobby, not an investment. Rare for anyone to build a hotrod, and get their money back.
I'd want to build the car so it would be fun, but not so radical that it can't continue to get decent mileage, and drive well. I'd also consider tossing the TH350 in favor of a OD automatic, as it will make the car even more enjoyable to drive on the open road.
I'd stick to a milder build in the 350-375hp range. Plenty of get up and go, but not crazy. When you go through the rear axle, I'd put a decent posi in, and use a gear ratio of around 3.56 to 3.73, so it will have good acceleration, but with the OD trans, still get good highway mileage.
 
#12 ·
One thing I forgot to mention, I'm rebuilding my TH350 with a TCI Pro Super kit (Same parts as the Super StreetFighters) so it will hold up to all that. The Turbo 400 is a little heavier and longer, so I'd have to modify the driveshaft. (I'll replace it if I have to....as in when I snap it in half)

I don't want to buy a new tranny, I'd rather rebuild this one. And change out the rear end to a limited slip.

If you check that Google Sheet, it has multiple sheets at the bottom, Powertrain, Drivetrain, Saftey, Accessories, and Wheels & Tires. I've even accounted for some Fluids... And I want more than just 350 HP. I don't wanna just beat other cars at the stop lights, I want to absolutely destroy them. Like I wanna be able to pull over and sit on my hood by the time they reach me. I want at least 400, if not 450. This setup should make about 490, based off of the parts. Basically, if I do a big block, my budget is GONE. So a small block is better suited, but if I have to push back the car running for a few more months, it's fine. Summer I should make enough to build the engine and upgrade the driveline. The rest will come later on as I can afford it. (Unless my parents are feeling generous..)

I hope you guys know how much I appreciate all this advice!!
 
#14 ·
I don't know why you place such an emphasis on short stroke, all that results in is an engine that is going to get you beat by everyone because it is too small and lacks torque. A '78 Camaro is HEAVY in hotrodder and racer terms, its a near 3900 lb barge unless you gut the bumpers and doors and swap on a fiberglass hood.

Your comment "don't want a 383 because of that stroke:bore ratio, it just doesn't seem right to me" is just completely incorrect and just flies in the face of solid engineering principles, a good 383 is going to run away from any full tilt peewee 350 you can put together. Better yet would be a 3.875" stroke crank and turn that 350 block into a 396. A 7500 rpm 383 or 396 isn't enough rpm for you??!

If you think stroke to bore ratio has any big emphasis on power and longevity of a street/strip engine then you've got a lot to learn yet. Similar to the guys who think rod length to stroke ratio has any real importance too.

If you want to scare the pups like you are the big dog, putting a Chihuahua under the hood isn't going to get it done, you need a big Pit Bull or Rottweiler. :D

Shoot for a streetable 500 HP 383 or 396 stroker(unless you can find a good 400 block, then build a 406 or 421) because cubic inches are king......a short stroke motor will just end up being all bark and no bite, a Poseur engine.

Don't be the often typical Mullet-head caricature Camaro owner ;)
 
#15 ·
Where I live its like a half mile from each stop light to another. I'm not worried about a little ricer, especially the ones around here. I've only heard ONE blowoff valve out of the heard of ricers here. Other than that, all they have is a muffler and decals.....its pretty funny when they rev.
 
#20 ·
5800 rpm 383 is what I call a truck engine

Probably only 5800 rpmbecause of hydraulic cams and poor heads, ....I could easily put a 383 together to turn 8500 rpm if you want it, but the valvetrain gets expensive when you start chasing rpm like that, and the big heads to actually flow enough air at that rpm aren't cheap either.

None of this 180cc or 195cc intake runner volume 2.02"/1.6" valve diameter generic stuff, 220cc or bigger runners, 2.08-2.125"/1.625" valves.

The 383 I built for a friends mini-tubbed '67 El Camino turns 7800 rpm no problem, and it is nothing fancy....SCAT cast crank, 5.7"Eagle SIR rods, TRW forged flat tops, 11.2"1 compression, roller cam, 825cfm BG Demon carb, Racing Head Service/ ProAction Iron Lightning 235cc heads ...been together 6 years now. $3400 engine, only stock part was the 350 block.
My 406 gets turned 7400 rpm, and it is just stock 400 crank and stock 305 rods w/ARP bolts, TRW forged flat-tops, solid flat tappet cam, etc and its been together for over 10 years running street use and at the drags 2-3 weekends a month....drive it to the track, run mid 11's, drive it home on pump gas. $3000 engine.

Not rocket science, just proper parts in the proper places and good machine work, so build as large engine as you can afford in the block you choose to use.
 
#21 ·
You don't need to go 6500 rpm or higher to be fast. Consider more than rpm when you want to go fast. HP, cubic inches, and torque should be your main factors. And if your engine builds those at under 6,000 rpm, then you'll be much quicker in 1/4 mile than most of the street cars around you.
I never take my 454 BBC over 6,000 rpm (intentionally!) and I'm pleased with how it holds it's own against cars that wind to 7,000 rpm easily.
 
#24 ·
It pushes the 3650lb El Camino down the track at 11.10's @ 117 MPH on pump gas, 10.60's @ 122 MPH on a 175 HP nitrous shot w/race fuel.

No idea how much power it makes, never been engine dyno'd. Easily 550+HP though, to put that much weight at that time slip.

Skip White(whiteperformance1) and Fred White(WhitePerformanceMachine)on Ebay have some real good deals on 383 stroker kits at the $1000 or less level. Here is one example: 6.0" rods
383 Assembly Scat Crank 6" Rods Wiseco 030 Flat Top Pistons 2pc RMS 5 64 6 0 | eBay
5.70" rods 383 Assembly Scat Crank 5 7" Rods Wiseco 030 Flat TP Pistons 2pc RMS 5 64 5 7 | eBay

You'll find some kits $50 or so cheaper with Eagle cast cranks, but the SCAT cranks and SCAT rods are considered much better pieces. You'll also find cheaper kits with Hypereutectic pistons in them, but Forged pistons are much stronger. Many cheaper kits also don't include harmonic damper and flexplate.
 
#27 · (Edited)
1.54 second sixty foot, on 315/60-15" Mickey Thompson Drag Radials(basically the same size as 30 x 12.5 ET Drag slicks), Powerglide trans, 4000 stall, 5.13 gear.
The 5.13's are just a bit too much, should have either 4.88's or 4.71's...but the owner is just happy running the hell out of it.
A lot of people still think that it's a lot of gear, but it is a TALL tire.

The roller cam, harmonic damper, and aluminum timing cover were all bought used, everything else was new. Cam is a Herbert, scored for just $67 on Ebay.
 
#28 ·
. Of course a big block would fit, it was an ordinary option earlier in that body series... but a hot small block will blow away the big blocks they were using by then... even the earlier ones...


. We don't talk stroke:bore... we talk bore:stroke... and a 383 is still an oversquare engine that likes to rev with bigger 4.030" bore compared to still smaller 3.75 stroke... and, like Eric correctly pointed out, by '78 Camaros had gotten heavy, so more cubes/torque comes in handy...


. The RPM intake and 750 DP would work well on the new engine...


. Building an engine that gets good MPG isn't just about MPG, it's a more efficient engine... and an engine that uses half the gas for the same power lasts longer with half as much gas washing the lubrication off the cylinder walls... and all the gas burning instead of washing off lube and polluting the exhaust...


. LOL! Just got interrupted by a loud noise, a long trailer full of dirt track cars just arrived for the build/storage building behind my garage... wasn't sure if it sounded like a car or a motorcycle out there... OK, where were we?


. Sometimes gauges can be all 'hooked up', but not work because the instrument panel lost it's ground connection, very common...


. The 305 should have idled fine with the 750 DP... it just wasn't tuned right... or it had a huge cam...


. Any cam above a 208/208 is going to lope at idle... each step bigger makes the lope worse... the lope is actually an undesirable side effect of bigger cams... but I know kids think they want one like other racers have... kinda like a fart can muffler on a poseur ricer...


. Didn't we explain all this to you before in a different thread?
.
 
#29 ·
No, I don't think you did. I'll look for a good cam and I'd like no more than about 240° of duration with like 110 or 108 lobe separation. I'll see what I can find..... Otherwise, I'll build that engine to be pretty wild. The guages have good ground, that's always what I check first. They just got old after a while I suppose....plus the last owner did some awful wiring.....
 
#31 ·
Keep up with the times, get an LS engine! It will give you more power for less money than an old-style SBC...
Look at a junkyard, low miles 6.0 litre (that's 364ci) out of a truck (you can swap to carb if you really need to play with a carb but factory EFI is easy and has so much potential, it is hard to believe!), swap cam (maybe heads) and there, cheap, powerful, reliable, even good on gas (yeah I know you said it does not matter, but that is more money for A/C, gauges, or chicks!).
And they love to rev!
A 4-speed trans is also a cool thing to have, it allows a shorter rear end ratio while keeping highway driving bearable (less engine RPM, less noise, less wear...).
 
#33 ·
As far as your Google sheets list goes, I can find several items to do better on either price or quality.
-Better rotating assembly then the Eagle kit listed, it only has hyper pistons
-Better deal on aluminum heads with similar flow numbers at 1/2 that price
-ProForm rockers are not that good, and you don't want self-guided rockers on a head with guideplates on it, the two alignment methods will bind with each other.
-FluidDamper is overly expensive and not the best idea, some crank companies won't even warrantee a crank run with a FluidDamper on it. The rotating assembly I pointed you to already has one matched to it also.
-The oilpan you've listed is for a 2-piece rear seal block, but you are buying a 1-piece seal block.
-A custom torque converter is much better than an off-the-shelf fits-all from TCI, for near the same price.
-Stock starter will do just fine, don't need that fancy race starter and expense.
-Don't use platinum or iridium small tip plugs in a performance engine, the tip will burn off due to its small size not being able to deal with sudden high heat loads(instant WOT). Use Autolite o NGK standard tip or race plugs.
-You don't need an ignition module if you are using an MSD box, the box already has a module in it, box hooks directly to the magnetic pick-up in the distributor.
-Forget the sparkplug washers, waste of time for marginal if any gain.

-You're missing head bolts, flexplate-to-crank and converter bolts, balancer bolt, pushrods, and camshaft retainer plate.

that's my view of the particulars of the list. :)
 
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