1978 f600 wont start or back fires

hey there help is needed in trying to figure out why this 5.4 engine wont start. Engine turns over has good fuel, compression, and is in time but wont start??? fire at the coil seems to be good just by looking at it jumping to a ground, but does not at time seem to get from the coil side of the distributor cap to the plugs. I have put in new points and condenser, rotor button, plugs and plug wires. the gap I have the points set at are .017. Any idea's would be greatly appreciated. Thanx Bryan


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Only advice I can give is the best place for points is the trash.

check for correct firing order.

dist 180 off?

I found the firing order on the manifold to be 15426378 and as well in the books and is correct according to this and rotation of the distributor is counter clockwise. The distributor is not off by a 180 degrees. And yes i would agree that the best place for points is in the trash but have you atempted to locate all the correct components to convert this to electronic ignition and if so and know a good source to do so I'm all ears and have considered this but don't know where to get the correct stuff to convert it. Thanx for the assistance.

The one thing missing from your post was WHEN it last ran and what you may have done to it since it ran. If it hasn't run in a decade, that would be a different problem, in all likelihood, than if it was running prior to your working on it and now doesn't start. Also, the term "5.4" engine is reserved for the newer 5.4 Mod engine,yours would be in cubic inches not liters. That, it is not...what is it...a 330, a 351W/M, a 360, a 370???? Fill in some gaps.

Start with the simplest first. It just might be 180' out of time, if you have timed it with the timing marks on the harmonic balancer this could be the case. The next thing to look at is the spark to determine if it is hot enough, if not then try any other coil to see if that helps, then use a match book cover to set the points gap with the shoe/wiper cam on a high lobe of the distributor. The match book cover won't be exact but will put you close enough to get it running well. 16 to 18 thousands should give you a pretty good dwell. Also change the condenser---- sometimes a 50 cent part can take down the space shuttle Hey?

Question: Does it fire back through the carb? If it does, it is out of time. If it is an older engine with many miles on it, then it could have jumped time through the timing gear and chain set.... This would be a major pain in the butt to correct. Requires a tear down to replace chain and gears.

If it was a rebuild recently I suspect distributor timing rather then anything more serious.... That is assuming the rebuild was proper.

To check to see what the heck is going on: Pull #1 plug, put a probe into the spark plug hole, turn engine over in the proper direction (BY HAND) until the piston is at the top. Then check to see if both valves on that cyl are closed, or on the overlap. If they are , then check to see where the rotor button is pointed. This test will then verify that the cam is in time with the crank and that the distributor is in time with the engine and that the correct spark plug is firing at the right time.

If that doesn't fix it for you then I suspect weak spark, or maybe the points are grounded and do not create the spark gap that is needed for the coil to build energy. Therefore not enough energy going to fire the plugs when the rotor sends it to the plug. Hope this makes some sense.

AS far as points not being any good.... That simply becomes an opinion by different individuals. Usually them young feller's who just do not understand how the simplistic older ignitions work. Breaker point systems are plenty good. Capable of very high rpm's, high performance applications and unlike solid state ignitions, you can usually fix them in the middle of the night, in the middle of nowhere, without any special replacement parts.....

Okay, okay, before I get any hate mail.... CDI styles are a better set-up. Just a thought---- The cops can now turn off you cdi ignitions anytime they want while sitting in the comfort of their cruiser :-) Can't do that to breaker points ignition..... Kinda stinks when you are trying to run 'Shine!'

Where did you hear that? That's news to me! I do recall that way back in the day when VW brought out their first breakerless ignition, that a CB radio with a LARGE linear amp would take it out, but that was many years ago.

Mark

My first thought is that maybe you're trying to time it like a Chevy. On a Ford, #1 plug is at the front on the PASSENGER side, not the driver side. #2, #3 and #4 are also on the passenger side, going from front to back. #5 is front driver side, then #6, #7 and #8 going front to back.

Go to the passenger side and pull the front plug. Have a friend rotate the motor with a socket on the crank. Turn the motor clockwise looking at the front of the motor while you hold your finger or thumb over the spark plug hole. When you feel pressure building on your thumb, start looking at the harmonic damper and bring the crank on around to TDC. Plug your #1 wire into the cap where the rotor aligns with that hole in the cap. Going counter-clockwise around the cap, next plug in #5, then #4, then #2 and so forth. I think you'll find it will fire if you do this.

Unfortunately I was brought in after the fact of this problem and it is my understanding that the only thing that was done to it prior to me getting involved was new points condenser rotor button and plugs. engine is in time #1 cyl. tdc rotor points to #1 on the distributor cap. #1 cyl being on the passenger side front cyl and # right side front to back 1234 and left side being 5678 respectively. Firing order being 15426378 as noted on the intake manifold and rotation of the distributor cap is counterclockwise. It does have good compression in all eight cyl. 165psi is the highest and the rest are with in 10% of this figure. Points are set at .017 spark jumping to a ground seem good to visually look at it when cranking the engine and the points are triggering the the coil in the crank mode. It seems that the problem is getting the spark thru the cap and to the plugs. It does get to the plugs from time to time but when it does it seems weak. I have put the second set of points and condensor in it and a new coil. My question is could the wrong plug wires cause this and if so how can I tell if it is the wires. They were put on before I got involved and if they were for an hei ignition could this be the culprit. The enigne is a 330 cid but it say 5.4 on the right valve cover. It has only 36000 original miles on it and has been in the family since new in 1978. It has not been butchered up in any way nor does it appear to have had an engine swap and I was told the engine has never been out of it from the original owner. It has sat for some time not sure how long but I dont see how this would cause a problem when it is in time, has good compression, good fuel. I believe the problem as stated earlier has something to to with Fire reaching the plugs. When Cranking the engine with everything hooked up it either acts like it has the ignition unhooked or it will hit from time to time like it wants to start, but rarely. I also tried putting the distributor in 180 degrees out to see what it did and it did as expected and became hard to crank and would back fire thru the carb. Thanx for all the help you all have put in to this and will try hooking 12volts to the coil directly to see if this will get it going.

Make very sure that the ignition ground strap is in good shape. It is very small and runs from one of the point plate mounting screws TO one of the screws that hold down the points inside the distributor. If it's NOT hooked on one end and bouncing around, it will scatter the spark and won't start!!! Seen it done many times. They also break. Take one screw out and pull gently. The wound wire can "look" good but can actually be broken. It's most likely a simple problem that is being over thought and over looked.

Mark

If this engine is getting old mileage wise, it's possible the timing set is gone, stretched chain, disintegrating cam gear, the usual suspects. This lets the cam get behind the crank (i.e. like me,,, retarded!)

If for example every tune up in the past year or two showed the spark falling behind and needing adjustment, power's been falling off and nothing you've done will restore it. These are a couple symptoms pointing in that direction.

Unfortunately the test for this on an engine that won't start is so invasive, you might as well just get the parts and change the old gears and chain and be done with it.

Bogie

After re-reading your post, you mention the wrong wires. It's possible IF HEI wires were installed. They are designed for the cap tower going up INSIDE the wire to make contact. Old style wires themselves go inside the CAP to make contact. Using the wrong ones will not let the spark jump far enough to "make the trip" and fire off. Can you provide a picture of the cap end of one of the wires?

You also mention the mileage at 36,000 with good compression and good fuel. Pretty much leaves you with an ignition problem.

Yep, directed high radio frequency energy, it's just like 50 megatons going off a 100 miles above your head, anything electrical/electronic is toast. Only by directing the energy, your done, not everybody around you. God help you if you're wearing a pacemaker, which unlike the TASER may keep such gadgets out of the hands of the cops. The TASER just hasn't killed enough people yet, but I think they'll go in a few years, also.

Whether point ignition would continue to operate would depend on the power level aimed at the car. That would take more power than what would kill switching transistors, but it's not an impossibly huge amount all they have to do is kill the condenser, or continuously interrupt the system long enough to bring you to a halt yet leave no lasting damage.

Bogie

Bogie......I have not heard of officers having in-vehicle ignition kill doo hickies. Personally, I don't believe they have such a thing in their hands inside the vehicle. Would toast their own vehicles too, no?