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-   -   1982 camaro crossfire injection (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/1982-camaro-crossfire-injection-180922.html)

53fordguy 07-12-2010 10:10 AM

1982 camaro crossfire injection
 
hey does anyone know about doing a 350(or any sbc 327+) swap under this? i hear its not the greatest system but i have a very very tired 305, and im lookin to replace it, not interested in speding alot of money or converting back to carb. any one know if it'll just bolt on or would i have to swap heads up? thanks. :confused:

oldbogie 07-12-2010 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53fordguy
hey does anyone know about doing a 350(or any sbc 327+) swap under this? i hear its not the greatest system but i have a very very tired 305, and im lookin to replace it, not interested in speding alot of money or converting back to carb. any one know if it'll just bolt on or would i have to swap heads up? thanks. :confused:

It's pretty much the same system as used on the single 2 barrel TBI, just split to feed two single barrel TBI's. Not a particularly effective system, designed more for the LOOK rather than the GO. Along with a 350, the swap to a Holley 670 CFM on a 180 degree intake would provide better all around performance. But the cross-fire can be made to work on a 350 with either a custom chip and your existing injectors or a 350 chip with 350 size injectors. Contact these people:

http://www.tbichips.com/

Using your existing size injectors will drive them to be on longer than the 305. Typically TBI injectors cycle twice per second, the total on time should not exceed .8 second or the coil overheats and risks a shorter life span. The larger 350 injector has the capacity to deliver more fuel during the on period, thus avoiding have to switch it on for .9 or 1.0 (continuously) to feed the larger displacement. Therefore it will run in a safer temperature range for coil life.

Bogie

53fordguy 07-12-2010 03:27 PM

Thanks bogie.

so this set up will set right on a 86-98 350? and if i find older itll sit atop a old sbc? no differences in chamber placement or water jackets?

and the 350 injectors im lookign for are 50lb right, is there 65's for oem?

oldbogie 07-12-2010 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53fordguy
Thanks bogie.

so this set up will set right on a 86-98 350? and if i find older itll sit atop a old sbc? no differences in chamber placement or water jackets?

and the 350 injectors im lookign for are 50lb right, is there 65's for oem?

Pretty much it will fit, the thing you'll have to watch for is the orientation of the 4 intake bolts to the center of the head. In 86/87 these were changed from 90 degrees to the head's port face to 72 degrees. While this happened to most heads there are exceptions so pay attention before calling it good.

Injectors are:

- 5.0 uses 5235279, or 5235307 at 45 lbs/hr @ 9-13 psi

- 5.7 regular duty uses 5235206 at 55 lbs/hr @ 9-13 psi
heavy duty uses 17084327, or 17112412 at 68 lbs/hr @ 9-13 PSI

- 7.4 regular duty uses 5235231 at 75 lbs/hr @ 9-13 psi
heavy duty uses 17112560 at 85 lbs/hr @ 9-13 psi

There may be other GM P/Ns I'm not aware of. Also keep in mind that Holley is a big supplier of these things as is Bosch and others. Another good outfit to look for service and parts is Turbo City.

Remember that injector size and computer program have to work together.

Bogie

Silverback 07-13-2010 09:56 PM

5 Attachment(s)
With a proper driver and fuel flowing through it those injectors can be held open for minutes at a time without overheating.

Yes, the crossfire setup can be bolted onto a 350, the '82 and '84 corvette used exactly the same setup on a 350. It will not bolt to vortec heads, they didn't have the same bolt locations and the intake ports are taller and won't seal properly. The '87 and up heads (pre vortec) have a different center bolt angle but same locations. You can get bushings to adapt them (some will slot the bolt holes but in this case you won't get away with it, you'll end up with a vacuum leak).

There are injectors available from somewhere in the mid 40's to 96pph (though bigger that the 72 or 75pph big block injectors are very hard to find in the correct configuration. OTOH, if you only need a little more flow than more fuel pressure will work well. The stock setup typically will run at 9-12psi, but most cars will run better with it boosted up to 12-15psi, and I've seen them run as high as 25-30psi (but remember that the flow increase by raising fuel pressure is only the square root of the pressure increase, it's not linear).

the stock fuel pressure regulator can be modified to be adjustable, but be aware that the stock plumbing with uses staggered injectors, they are not the same size front and back. If you upgrade and can't find a staggered set you'll have to replumb the fuel system, gutting the accumulator in the front injector tower and connecting the 2 injectors in parallel instead of series like stock. Also, you might find the stock pump doesn't want to deliver much past stock fuel flow, the easy solution for that is to run a later TPI style pump.

If you decide you need more airflow the TB's can be ported quite a bit, some stop at 2" bores, but its not hard to go past that. Injector tower spacers will also give you more airflow, and anything that raises the injectors higher will result in better fuel distribution.

If you start looking into reprogramming, yes, you can burn a new chip for the stock ECM, but you're better off converting to a later TBI ECM, like the 7747 truck ECM or even one of the aftermarket modified versions (do a search for EBL Locker).

I can keep going, but this is probably already getting overwhelming. The thing to remember with this setup is that it's all about monster torque. it will absolutely obliterate a comparable TPI setup WRT low end and MPG, and properly tuned will beat many much faster cars from a stop light, so if you're making changes take that into account. I had an '83 crossfire TA which with some work (but still the original 305 with something like 150K miles on it) that ran mid 13's at 100mph and got 35-37mpg on the highway. With 27" tall back tires I actually ran slower going from 3.23 to 3.42 rear gears (I blew up the stock gears and had a set of 3.42's sitting around).

In the first picture you can see the front injector tower modified to have a schrader valve so you can hook up a standard FI pressure gauge, the back FPR is modified to be adjustable, TB spacers under the throttle bodies, and injector tower spacers spacing the towers up

The second picture shows the bored TB and the spacer. The rest are just detail shots.

DoubleVision 07-14-2010 09:59 AM

But the outcome to "cease fire injection" as it`s mostly known for is why bother? Look at the intake ports where they mate up with the head. They are half the size of the smallest SBC 2 barrel intake which means trying to do anything with them performance wise is really a waste of time. Not only that cease fire injection had horrible distribution problems due to a design they`ve never worked the bugs out of. Cease fire injection was only avalible 2 model years, and to find a vehicle still with one in working condition is rare since most of them were dumped for carbs. Cease fire injection came along as mostly a band aid, it was GM`s first real step into fuel injection territory and when they seen the problems it caused they dumped it and moved on to the basic TBI.

Silverback 07-14-2010 03:12 PM

how come so many responses to this board are like that?

It was not GM's first real step into FI, caddy used a similar setup from the mid 70's, and that basic setup (the single and 2 bbl TBI) with many interchangeable parts was used through the 90's on many of it's workhorse engines, because it was simple, reliable and efficient.

The actual crossfire setup was used for 3 years (82-84).

I've never actually seen documented distribution problems with them unless someone messed with it causing them. Heck, if they had distribution problems the engines would never have run right with old school iron heads and 9.8:1 compression (and they worked fine on 87 octane), distribution problems are the bane of detonation control.

The ports were specifically designed that way to create a "ski slope" type spot that the air rode over to make the port act like a smaller, high velocity port to enhance the low end/have better responsiveness without having to design heads specific to the application (this intake with slight modifications makes a KILLER setup for a 4x4).

The cease fire name came from the fact that many of these cars came with functional hood scoops and water got in through them and wet the HEI, coil in cap distributors causing starting problems (supposedly, I never had a problem with mine). I guess we should condemn everything that runs a GM HEI ignition?

It's like with a lot of other things, you need to understand it and work within that context with it. Would I recommend the setup for a fire breathing road race or drag car? No. OTOH, for a simple, reliable, fun and efficient street car, IN A SECOND, well before I would suggest the much more popular TPI (and I currently own 2 TPI cars and probably have 2 complete additional intakes in the basement that people gave me, OTOH, I saved all the Crossfire stuff off the crossfire car when that went away, and those are hard to come by and often people that are familiar with them don't want to let them go). It makes more torque, better responsiveness, MUCH better mpg and fewer parts to break/leak then a TPI with a similar top end limitation.

53fordguy 07-16-2010 11:44 AM

cross fire ok in my books.
 
i dunno what everyones hate is about haha, i just got this car and i cannot believe how much jam it has, i was very suprised ive had a few tbi chevys and they allways felt sluggish, i stick my foot down and the car just keeps haulin butt! combo'ed with the th350 its allways making revvs. i was thinking just upgrading injectors and maybe a small chip for now, cause its my daily for now,while i build the merc hahah. the posi is very nice to btw :pimp:

cobalt327 07-16-2010 04:11 PM

INFO: www.x-ram.com , www.turbocity.com , www.corvetteactioncenter.com

Anyone know anything about a x-fire intake top made by Dynamic Crossfire Solutions", called the Renegade?
There was also a "X-Ram", made for an open plenum intake, w/the CFI top added. I don't know what happened w/it, either.

Then there's a modded Offy intake:

http://jobyteknik.homeip.net/corvett..._dsc07260s.JPG
http://jobyteknik.homeip.net/corvett...N_DSC05983.JPG

Somewhere there's a custom lid for the Edelbrock STR-10 and the Edelbrock SY1 like the one above.

From what I can tell, the intake is the hurdle to making good power. Well, besides a better fuel pump. And an ECM. And if I were doing a chip/ECM I'd want a cam to go w/it. And the cam really needs better heads...

Just like ANY engine/induction system, you can get on board and ride as far as your wallet will take you.

From HERE (also info and photos on modding the CFI intake):
http://www.technovelocity.com/chevyh.../manifold3.jpg
STOCK CFI PORTS

Silverback 07-17-2010 11:04 AM

The thing is that in many cases those are basically swapping a crossfire top onto a manifold that has MUCH larger runners... unless you change everything at once you're going to end up with a mismatched combination that won't run very well.

Secondly, that link does a lot of things that either don't help at all or hurt, like there is no point in opening up the port openings like that, it's kind of hard to see in the pics, but the intake runners run flat in the manifold like the head ports, and the big flat area where it bolts to the head is there just to seal the ports. If you look at that last pic posted, there isn't much metal behind it, and if you open it up to a typical head gasket opening you can only do it at a the flange, the rest of the port stays that small, and even if that wasn't the case, the air flow would have to take a hard, downward turn to use the extra cross section. In the end you're just ruining something that was working and in the process getting something that doesn't work in any way.

He also cut back 4 of the 8 runners... shorter runners might help up top if you increased cross section significantly, but they didn't, and left a square edge that will hurt airflow and fuel distribution, while leaving the outer runners pretty much stock also, further unbalancing things.

There just isn't room in the stock manifold to make it a high rpm breather, cutting out the EGR works, radiusing the port entries works, don't touch the exits (at least don't change their shape), clean off all the casting flash, cutting out the sides of the swirl plates and plenum spacers work also (gives more room for the air to change directions).

I can post some pics later if I can find them/have time.

53fordguy 08-11-2010 12:39 PM

just to be sure i can use regualr gaskets on this? i think i have found a good 87 engine with 40k on it, i dont want any trouble haha i know about the intake bolts bat as far as sealability, i definitly do not want vaccum leaks haha

bigdog7373 08-11-2010 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53fordguy
i definitly do not want vaccum leaks haha

vacuum leaks are no laughing matter.

cobalt327 08-11-2010 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 53fordguy
just to be sure i can use regualr gaskets on this? i think i have found a good 87 engine with 40k on it, i dont want any trouble haha i know about the intake bolts bat as far as sealability, i definitly do not want vaccum leaks haha

I would use a good FelPro Print-o-Seal (or similar type) gasket made for that application. Not "racing" gaskets.

53fordguy 08-12-2010 11:20 AM

ok thanks guys, does anyone have any pictures or specs on where to hog out the center bolt holes tnx. 53

cobalt327 08-12-2010 03:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)
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