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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 08:56 AM
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Metric low tension ring sets do not have the same sealing capabilities as a standard set.They are more appropriately used in a race set up where drag tension is a concern.I don't want to open the topic of long rod vs short rod debate.I in fact believe in the use of long rod engines.What get's more complicated is whether the trade off of ring spacers is worth the long rod in a relatively low compression street application.I'm saying it isn't and in fact the longer rod (6" vs 5.7")isn't going to make that big of a difference.That we build long term good sealing street performance street engines that are reliable.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
Metric low tension ring sets do not have the same sealing capabilities as a standard set.They are more appropriately used in a race set up where drag tension is a concern.I don't want to open the topic of long rod vs short rod debate.I in fact believe in the use of long rod engines.What get's more complicated is whether the trade off of ring spacers is worth the long rod in a relatively low compression street application.I'm saying it isn't and in fact the longer rod (6" vs 5.7")isn't going to make that big of a difference.That we build long term good sealing street performance street engines that are reliable.
metric ring sets seal BETTER- which is why OEM's have been trending towards thinner rings for decades. and as I already noted a 6" rod DOES NOT require oil ring support on a 3.48" stroke. If you need new rods and pistons there isn't a single reason in favor of a 5.7" combo.
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Old 11-16-2012, 09:46 AM
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metric ring sets seal BETTER- which is why OEM's have been trending towards thinner rings for decades. and as I already noted a 6" rod DOES NOT require oil ring support on a 3.48" stroke. If you need new rods and pistons there isn't a single reason in favor of a 5.7" combo.
AP- I am going to respectfully disagree with you on the ring sets long term and I know with 3.48 stroke as oil ring spacer isn't used,so in that case a 6" rod could be used.I did think I read he was if with a SBC going to stroke it.

As I posted,I suggest he goes with a BBC.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 09:59 AM
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AP- I am going to respectfully disagree with you on the ring sets long term and I know with 3.48 stroke as oil ring spacer isn't used,so in that case a 6" rod could be used.I did think I read he was if with a SBC going to stroke it.

As I posted,I suggest he goes with a BBC.
I appreciate you being civil about the ring issue, but all of the data collected by all of the major car manufacturers shows that you're wrong. They're switching to thinner rings for a reason- more power, better sealing, less bore wear, and as a result better emissions. Many of them are also switching to steel rings (a lot of foreign cars have used steel rings for decades).

The singular advantage thicker rings have is cost. for sbc's a cast iron 5/64ths ring set is still the cheapest set by a LONG shot.
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Old 11-16-2012, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
I appreciate you being civil about the ring issue, but all of the data collected by all of the major car manufacturers shows that you're wrong. They're switching to thinner rings for a reason- more power, better sealing, less bore wear, and as a result better emissions. Many of them are also switching to steel rings (a lot of foreign cars have used steel rings for decades).

The singular advantage thicker rings have is cost. for sbc's a cast iron 5/64ths ring set is still the cheapest set by a LONG shot.
This is true but it's all being accompanied with changes to better materials inclusive of the ring, piston and bore, reloacted ring positions and changes not only to oils but lubrication systems as well. So retrofitting this technology into old engineswill take a coordinated effort to make changes that let this modern stuff survive. It just might not be possible to get away with in a thin wall gray iron block without some "Rocket Science" changes to the bore materials and a heavy duty redesign to some details of the lubrication system like indexed squirters onto the underside of the piston. This can easily take you down a crazy road that the average hobbest hot rodder that comes here for help probably doesn't have enough VISA card limit to be able to afford this modern stuff.

But by any current standard the 5/64th ring package is way obsolete. But there must be a bazillion leftover pistons that were originally made back in the 1970's still on the market with this groove width. If your not turning over 6000 RPM, feeding the thing laughing gas or methanol these old rings will still get the job done for the average guy's budget.

Bogie
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2012, 02:34 PM
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Just saying "metric rings" leaves a lot out of the picture IMHO. There has been metric rings used in GM production engines for quite some time now- including the Gen 1 and 2 SBC. So to say 'metric rings' does not necessarily say anything is all that different that can't be handled by a competent machine shop (tension, materials, honing finish) other than the measurement system used to measure the rings. In the case of the SBC the top rings measure the same thickness for all intents and purposes, while the second rings are marginally thinner than the old fractional ring sets.

Example:

A 5/64" ring = 1.98mm. The LT1/4 Gen 2 engines and the later Gen 1 engines use a 2mm/1.5mm/4mm ring package. The second ring is akin to a 1/16" fractional ring. Radial tension may be less, but it does not HAVE to be so.

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Old 11-17-2012, 10:19 AM
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A proper gaped 5/16 compression ring for it's application is going to provide 7 to 8 pounds of tension.
Certainly ring material,our competent properly prepped cylinders all come into play in the final sealing power.

We don't go by OEM standards when that hasn't been the point of hot rodding from the beginning of time to current.Some of the stuff they do is just pure cost cutting.

These comments are related to first gen blocks and street/strip applications.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2012, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Gary View Post
A proper gaped 5/16 compression ring for it's application is going to provide 7 to 8 pounds of tension.
Certainly ring material,our competent properly prepped cylinders all come into play in the final sealing power.

We don't go by OEM standards when that hasn't been the point of hot rodding from the beginning of time to current.Some of the stuff they do is just pure cost cutting.

These comments are related to first gen blocks and street/strip applications.
Most people use the OEM standard as the lowest acceptable standard- they try to do better. In fact, you're the first hotrodder I've found that sets their standards as higher than the target.

If you want to know all of the why's on why thinner rings are superior then call Total Seal- they've never steered me wrong and I'm sure they'd be glad to help you out too.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:20 AM
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Last year I was on a budget and I found a 350 3/4 ton truck that my uncle had and I took the engine out. I had some heads that were alredy checked out fine by my machine shop that were off of a 305 or 307 95 c10 I think it was. I used those heads and had a cam that I bought for 50 bucks. All I know about the cam is that it has 383 lift. Also have a edelbrock performer intake. Well I built this engine and it got unbelievable power. I dont know if its cause the 305/307 heads put off high compression or what but I run the car (79 El Camino SS) on 87 pump gas. It sound mean and drives like a champ. One thing I would consider is your transmission and gears. I have a muncie 4 speed and 3.73 gears which thats where I get alot of power from. Im also usin a stock Q Jet carb. So I guess what Im getting at dont worry about 400 HP and just build a good reliable mean street motor using GOOD used parts like an assembled block find some good vortecs (L31) heads like you were saying you wanted, if you can and just buy a good cam. All those vortecs can handle stock is .425 Lift but still would be a hell of a motor.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-17-2012, 08:56 PM
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transmissions and gear donot produce any horse power.
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:14 AM
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And sorry but if you think a 350 with 305 heads and a 383 lift cam which I didnt even know they made them that small makes unbelievable power then you dont know what real power is you would be lucky to make 200hp now the 400 is heavy and prob is costing him a few hp to rear wheels but motors not going make any more power no matter what gear or trans he has gear and trans just puts power to the road
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Old 11-18-2012, 12:17 AM
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And I dont use vortec heads never have never will so dont know for sure but everybody I know says they will support 480 lift stock
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:00 AM
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Yes it is .480 max lift. And Yes the engine I stated ubove is a nice mean street engine ON A BUDGET. No it doesnt have huge HP but I was saying not to worry about HP espeacially since he said he is on a budget. Just build a good reliable engine with parts that is in his price range. And I know for a fact my engine has more than 200 HP. Might not have 300 but it is a good reliable engine. And it runs awsome. And gears and a tranny def helps out with whatever setup you are going to have. Also I never said you used vortec heads. The OP was asking about getting one.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2012, 09:15 AM
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(And gears and a tranny def helps out with whatever setup you are going to have.)
what car does not have gears and tranny?
gear ratios can be changed for specific applications,,,
The absolute cheapest way to make a car quicker is to reduce the weight.some weight reduction can be done for the cost of labour alone.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:25 AM
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There are transmissions that are way better than others. I was just simply stating what I had and it helped my setup. I am not telling him to go buy one just saying it helps to have a good one.
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