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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-13-2005, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zimaad
Well, I don't think a compressor can really do "more" than you need!!! I just purchased the HF one recently. I'd have loved to get a 2-stage, but didn't have the $$$. The main way to get get a good 2-stage in your price range is to buy used. I know that Home Depot has a 2-stage for around $750-800 that flows a little more than the single stages we are talking about and at a higher PSI too. For about $800, you can get an IR single stage unit from Northern that flows about 17-18 CFM at 90psi. Online at Tractor Supply, it lists the same thing for slightly cheaper but with an 80gal tank instead of the 60 at northern. The 2-stage version is a few hundred more at a little over $1k. You can also keep an eye out in papers for local auctions/body shops closing down. I saw two 120gal 25+CFM models (one IR and one Snap-On) go for about $1000 each when a local body shop was closing down. It would have been great to get one...just out of my budget for now. I've also seen some good compressors go on ebay for good deals. Anyways...best of luck. So far, I've been happy with my HF single stage unit. I haven't use a DA sander yet, but I figure this unit will be ok for me for a number of years.

What all have you used the HF compressor for? I will be using a DA sander, but not very often.

These IR compressors are single stage, but flow alot more air then the HF and Craftsman units. They are more expensive than i want, but if there is no other way, then i will have to bite the bullet and get one.


$750:
http://www.mytscstore.com/detail.asp...productID=9181

$799 with FREE shipping:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...11720&R=211720

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Old 10-13-2005, 08:42 AM
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Toy, A word of caution here, I have been very disappointed lately to see a reputable company like Ingersoll Rand get into this "peak" HP nonsense because it is totally misleading and just plain dishonest. I think maybe it is the retailer and not IR themselves that are doing this but be warned that 11 HP "peak" is total nonsense and the real power out put is a great deal less than that. Both units appear to have the same pump/motor combo so the 5 HP claim seems a lot more believable but that CFM rating is a Little suspect for a single stage so before you buy make sure that it is the SCFM and NOT that ridiculous "tank assisted CFM" that some have resorted to using lately. You simply cannot use some manufactures specs to get a meaningful idea of how your compressor will perform because they go to great lengths to mislead the customer into thinking he is getting more than he really is. The way to determine the REAL power output is to look at the AMP rating (running, NOT start-up!) a real 5 HP motor will be rated at around 28 AMPS and if it is only about 15, as most single stage units are, then it is only about 3 1/2 to 4 HP no matter what ridiculous numbers they claim! HP does not determine a compressors performance anyway so the important thing to look at is the SCFM output since, when all else is considered, the CFM is really what matters because if the CFM is low NOTHING else will make up for it. The problem here is that now these outfits have resorted to using this "tank assisted CFM" scam which tells you absolutely nothing except that they are being dishonest about their numbers. The bottom line is look at the SCFM rating, the AMP rating and overall quality of the outfit and ignore all those impressive but phony numbers. Also a 60 gallon tank is all you need and while an 80 gallon will offer some advantage in compressor life and power consumption due to fewer start-up cycles this is only a very slight advantage and not worth spending much extra money on. As has already been said many times before an 80 gallon tank vs. a 60 gallon offers NO performance advantage in spite of what you will be told and if you pass up a unit with a smaller tank but more CFM to get the 80 gallon you WILL LOSE performance because CFM runs your tools not the tank and a bigger tank will not make up for insufficient CFM and don't let anybody tell you that it will!
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Old 10-13-2005, 01:32 PM
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I fully agree with oldred with his CFM suggestions. He is 100% correct. I think the real dilemma toykilla has is that he wants a compressor and has a certain amount of money to spend. He realized that the ones with more CFM are better, but you have to pay for that. What it comes down to is what tools you will use, how often, and if you are willing to put up with having to wait for the compressor to catch up if you use high usage tools like a DA sander. Buying a better compressor comes at a $$$ price, but not buying as good a compressor also comes at a price of lower performance.

I haven't used a DA sander with mine yet, but I will eventually. I just got it hooked up less than a week ago so I don't have much time on it, but have used impact wrenches, die grinders, cutoff tools, and drills. I haven't run out of air with any of those used intermittantly. I had borrowed my friends 110V craftsman 30gal, 6cfm, compressor before and this 60gal, 12 cfm, single stage is much better.

Best of luck - Drew
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:12 PM
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Ok, two new choices. Since it looks like in the long run i might not be happy with the first two choices:

http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/w...11720&R=211720

http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/produ...00&tab=spe#tab

I dont like the 80 gallon for size reasons, but i could live with it. The 80 gallon is a two stage, while the IR is a single stage.

Please comment. Thanks for you help so far.
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Old 10-14-2005, 12:28 PM
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Ingersol Rand

That is the direction I would go with..maybe a brand preferance on my part..I do think that one would pull your DA just fine..The DA is the big air eater the other air tools do not seem to eat so much air..

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Old 10-15-2005, 08:48 AM
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Toy, That Ingersoll ad is a good example of what I have been saying about sales hype--it is pure nonsense! That ad is worded to sound like the single stage pump is BETTER which is definitely not true! On the surface it looks like the Ingersoll would be the better buy but the Craftsman is by far the best choice here. The Ingersoll has 18.1 CFM from a single stage pump and 5 HP??? I don't believe it and when I get back by the Northern store I will stop in and check that thing because I am willing to bet that is "tank assisted CFM" and the real(SCFM) output will be only about 11-12 CFM! The Craftsman at least is providing believable numbers and that SCFM spec they have is very impressive for a compressor in that price range and should be all the air you will need unless you try to run multiple tools at the same time, it will run that DA sander with NO problem Normally I would recommend an Ingersoll over a Craftsman because of quality difference but in this case the Ingersoll is just not in the same performance class as the Craftsman in spite of their stated(most likely phony numbers) I have no way of knowing but I have dealt with, and recommended, Ingersoll for years and I can not believe they would resort to this kind of nonsense so I think it is the retailer who is providing this mis-leading info but whoever is responsible DON'T FALL FOR IT!!!

I didn't mean to make it sound as if the Craftsman is poor quality, it is more than just adequate for home and small shop use and should last a long time, it is just that Ingersoll Rand compressors, most of them anyway, are designed for heavy commercial use. That Craftsman should hold up just fine and you will probably use it for many years.

Last edited by oldred; 10-15-2005 at 09:03 AM.
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Old 10-15-2005, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldred
Toy, That Ingersoll ad is a good example of what I have been saying about sales hype--it is pure nonsense! That ad is worded to sound like the single stage pump is BETTER which is definitely not true! On the surface it looks like the Ingersoll would be the better buy but the Craftsman is by far the best choice here. The Ingersoll has 18.1 CFM from a single stage pump and 5 HP??? I don't believe it and when I get back by the Northern store I will stop in and check that thing because I am willing to bet that is "tank assisted CFM" and the real(SCFM) output will be only about 11-12 CFM! The Craftsman at least is providing believable numbers and that SCFM spec they have is very impressive for a compressor in that price range and should be all the air you will need unless you try to run multiple tools at the same time, it will run that DA sander with NO problem Normally I would recommend an Ingersoll over a Craftsman because of quality difference but in this case the Ingersoll is just not in the same performance class as the Craftsman in spite of their stated(most likely phony numbers) I have no way of knowing but I have dealt with, and recommended, Ingersoll for years and I can not believe they would resort to this kind of nonsense so I think it is the retailer who is providing this mis-leading info but whoever is responsible DON'T FALL FOR IT!!!

I didn't mean to make it sound as if the Craftsman is poor quality, it is more than just adequate for home and small shop use and should last a long time, it is just that Ingersoll Rand compressors, most of them anyway, are designed for heavy commercial use. That Craftsman should hold up just fine and you will probably use it for many years.
I appreciate the comments very much. I am ready to pull the trigger on this deal and i am still anxious about dropping this much money. The IR motor is rated at 30amps, could that be a reason for the higher output ?
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Old 10-15-2005, 06:50 PM
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Toy, That 30 AMP rating means that the motor is a true 5 HP unit (probably a Baldor on the Ingersoll) but that does not mean it should produce that kind of performance. 18.1 CFM from a 2 cylinder, single stage pump with 5 HP does not sound even close to right since that is what you would expect, maybe even a little less, from a 5 HP two stage pump which is FAR more efficient than the single stage. 12-13 CFM I might believe considering the true power output of the motor but 18.1 CFM is HIGHLY suspect!
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Old 10-31-2005, 12:33 AM
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Hi I saw your post so perhaps I can help you out.

I reciently purchased the 60gal compressor made by Kobalt at my local
lowes store "BTW I believe Kobalt is made by snapon, not %100 sure though"

Kobalt 7 HP (Peak) 60 Gallon Stationary Oil Lubricated Air Compressor
Item # 134819
Model # K7060HFV

The unit runs on 230v. My intent was to purchase a compressor that I
could use with standard hvlp guns, so I took a chance on this one. After
doing much research for atleast 2 months I am glad I bought this compressor
as it meets and exceeds my needs.

I have it plummed in and have a Air dryer connected to ist's output via
brass tubing. I reccomend you purchase a air dryer unit to help keep
water out of your air lines. The air dryer I purchased is available here
and is made by astro. Model 2617.

http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/Astro/astro.html

The air dryer unit has both a 1/4" regulated output and a 3/8" main line output. I use the 1/4" regulated output with a 50ft amaflo 3/8" hose
connected between the dryer unit and my gun. You will need to also purchase
a set of 3/8" industrial type quick connects. There is a pack of 2 available
from sears, they come with 3/8" size nipples. These are far better than the
standard type as they have a larger inner bore so more air volume can flow,
they cost about $17.00 and include various nipples.

BTW, I do not use a quick connect at the tank drier. It is hard wired via a
1/4" to 3/8" short coupler. I use the 3/8 coupler at the end of the hose
and a 3/8" nipple "large inner bore" at the input to my hvlp gun mini regulator.

So basically from the dryer all the way to the gun is a 3/8" line and connectors. This is because you will need to transfer the air from your tank
to the gun with the best volume you can.

For the gun I am using a finex fx300 hvlp 1.4. The gun works really well in
this setup. For this particular gun I run 70psi into the gun to achieve
the 29-psi at the cap. With the gun fully triggered there will be a pressure drop to about 2bar 29psi from the 70 going in.

What to expect. Thus far I have noticed this compressor only produces a small amount of water from a empty tank to a full tank. It reaches full charge from empty in about 3 minutes or so. Using my setup I can paint no problem
with the gun, The compressor will keep up with my gun which is good.

I also use a da on this system. The da I purchased at sears for about $100
is a palm type da. Easy to use and not a real air hog !

Hopefully this info will help you out. I am new to painting and still learning

Thanks. X
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:41 AM
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x711, From your discription it sounds like you have your dryer mounted on the tank? If so it will not do much good in that location and really should be located well downstream from the compressor itself or at least run the air through a cooler between the tank and dryer. There was a discussion here about water in the air lines just in the last few days.
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Old 10-31-2005, 07:28 AM
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I can't add anything to the warnings oldred has already given.

Quote:
Originally Posted by x711
For the gun I am using a finex fx300 hvlp 1.4. The gun works really well in
this setup. For this particular gun I run 70psi into the gun to achieve
the 29-psi at the cap. With the gun fully triggered there will be a pressure drop to about 2bar 29psi from the 70 going in.
I'm also a looong way from a painting expert but that 29 psi sounds a lot more like my Binks model 62 than HVLP. Just returned from a visit with my oldest brother, who has painted for a lot of years, to get some tips for using my cheapie HF "purple gun". His $400+ HVLP gun has "18 psi maximum inlet" stamped on the cap and that's just what he sets his regulator at. When he pulls the trigger, it drops to about 9 psi, which is very close to the pressure recommended in the manual for my gun and the pressure recommended in a thread in the Body - Exterior forum where a bunch of experienced painters were discussing how to get the best from a new gun/cap from some major manufacturer (Iwata maybe?). I could easily be wrong, but if I were you, I'd post those numbers in Body - Exterior and get some feedback from the experts who hang out there.
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Old 10-31-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote from OldRed.
================================================== ========
x711, From your discription it sounds like you have your dryer mounted on the tank? If so it will not do much good in that location and really should be located well downstream from the compressor itself or at least run the air through a cooler between the tank and dryer. There was a discussion here about water in the air lines just in the last few days.
================================================== ========

Well lets think about this for a sec and then follow it up with some hard
data. As the compressor runs it generates heat, this heat will condense
the air and the end result is water. Since water is heavier than air it
will make its way to the bottom of the tank and also into your air lines
espically if they are made of copper or brass.

So the idea is to keep water out of your air lines as you have to spray
with this air.

My dryer/water trap is mounted on the tank and coupled via brass tubing.
It basically hangs off the tank by about 6" or so.

Today I primed some parts over about 3 hours 65% of the time was used
to paint. I used a Finex FX300 with 1.8 needle made by sharpe.
The primer was well atomized and lay down smooth and flat. Alot better than
what you typically get from a spray can.

I measured the air temperature prior to starting. The ambient air was at 63
degrees F where the compressor is located, the actual air humidity was at
48.9%.

During the spraying the compressor cut on 5 times for a couple of seconds
over this period of time to re-charge the tank. "This did not hamper gun operation"

When I was completed I checked the tank and air/dryer for water.

The tank contained 2 tablespoons of water/oil. The dryer/water trap
contained 10 drops of water. I had not checked my air lines for water
since day one as I have been using the compressor about 3 to 4 times
a week lately. When I checked my 50ft air line I found no trace of water.

The results of the tank water check can be somewhat incorrect. Here
is why. Compressed air is getting forced through a small drain plug. This
drain plug will cool down with the passing air and thus condense right at that point which in-turn creates water.

I have no idea what others on here use for their air setup so I can only
comment on what I have.

What I have works! for me in my garrage setup.

Thanks X.
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:12 PM
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I was doing a search and came across this thread. I haven't been reading the tool posts because I am trying to learn how to paint. It may be too late for you but I bought the Kobalt that old red was referring to. I am very much pleased with it. It seems like a good compressor. It was originally $797.00 but I was able to get a 10% discount by putting it on my Lowe's card. I just sent the full payment check in today so I won't have to pay any interest. I hate to pay interest. That is money I can buy another tool with. Not all Lowe's carry this compressor. I couldn't even find it on their website. If you haven't bought one yet do a search on Kobalt because I posted all of the specs on this site. Good luck with anything whatever you buy.

Danny
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Old 10-31-2005, 06:26 PM
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X711, I hate to disagree but you are wrong about almost everything except the compressor generating heat. "this heat will condense the AIR ? and the end result is water"? I would suggest you refresh your self on physical science , Where do you think this water comes from? Anyway what really happens is that the hotter the air the more water it will hold in VAPOR form and until this air is cooled to allow the WATER VAPOR to condense(this is the dew point principle) into a mist in the air and droplets on the tank and pipe walls then the dryer(actually a water separator) cannot do much to remove it. A water separator works by spinning the air as it passes through thus using centrifugal force to sling the heavier condensed water out of the air allowing it to be collected in the housing of the unit. Water vapor, however, is for all practical purposes unaffected by centrifugal force and passes through into the air line where it cools and condenses into liquid water on the hose walls allowing it to exit into your tools,paint or whatever. The air coming directly from the tank is still hot unless the compressor has been sitting idle so most of the water contained is still in vapor form due to the higher temperature and thus will be unaffected by the centrifugal force of the spinning air in the separator that is why the air must be cooled by some method before the water can be removed. This is most commonly done by using a length of METAL pipe between the tank and the separator but sometimes a cooler is used. This is common industry practice and just plain common knowledge and if you take the time to research air plumbing systems you will find that these principles are incorporated into almost every design except for the systems that use a refrigerated dryer to cool the air before water removal.
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Old 10-31-2005, 08:17 PM
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re:compressors, which should i get?

OldRed, I did my research in advance and have seen many air layout diagrams.

With my setup "Home Garrage" the actual run to my gun is minimal so I dont
see any problems with what I have now. If I had more space and the budjet
I would put in a chiller or move the water trap/dryer further down the line
away from the tank as an experiment to see if anything could be gained.

Currently though I see little advantage to this as I am not running into
any problems laying down paint or primer.

But if I can draw on your experience, what would be the advantage of
re-doing what I have. Any advice is most welcome.

Also I am curious are you in a body shop or have you got a home setup.

What type of compressor / dryer system / gun etc do you use.

Is your measured air temperature at the end of the line cooler /warmer
than the area you paint in.

Thanks in advance. X
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