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Old 07-23-2009, 12:34 AM
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200 4r TV cable - no WOT, hard 1-2, no kickdown

Been reading/learning all day about setting TV cable, but can't find a solution.

My 69 Grand Prix came with a 200 4r tranny (behind a Chevy 383) that was rebuilt/beefed up. It has a Bowtie Overdrive braided cable/cam setup on a Street Demon carb. No matter what I do, I can't get WOT because there seems too much resistance with the TV cable hooked up (almost like the spring in trans is too stiff) - WOT needs a hard push, but is okay with TV cable disconnected. Trans doesn't slip, but has HARD 1-2 shift at 5-10 mph, and won't downshift at WOT (as much as I can get - secondaries only open about 45 degrees).

At idle, the TV cable is pulled out about 1/16" - I can pull the TV cable out about 1.5" max - more resistance is felt when pulled out about 1". I understand a stock TV cable gets set by moving the adjuster, then mashing the pedal/WOT and allowing it to click/self-adjust into position - an article said "clicks" occur with about 18 lbs of pull - I haven't checked how much pull it takes to get this cable to max, but it may be more than 18 lbs (only experience I've had was on an 89 Cavalier 200C and that TV cable/lever was loose compared to this one).

The guy who had the car before me had the trans built to "his specs" which may have been no automatic WOT downshifts - I can't get in touch with him. I may be able to call the trans shop but figured I'd try you all first. I'm sure someone will suggest putting a pressure gauge on (which I'd like to do if I can find a source for one - I assume I'd use 1/8" copper line/compression fittings).

I noticed the BTO cam setup does not match with other articles I've read. Some said the throttle bellcrank should hold the TV cable about 23 degrees toward firewall at idle (from a line dropped down from center of throttle shaft), then move 55 degrees forward at WOT. It doesn't seem like this would matter since the cable moves the same distance from idle to WOT (but let me know if it does). And the BTO cam is adjustable, which changes the distance from the throttle shaft center to the TV cable connector - all specs say this should be about 1.1". At this time, the cam is "minimized" at about 0.9", which decreases cable pull from about 1.375" to about 1.125 - but it seems to work okay.

Last issue is even if the TV gets positioned properly, it seems there is a lot of force on the throttle shaft when it's used as a lever point to pull out the TV cable - it seems the shaft/bushing will wear fast.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Rich

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Old 07-23-2009, 06:06 AM
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Have you read through BTO's tech help? 3-Pages > http://www.tvmadeez.com/article/index.php
Braided Cable Install/Adjust http://www.tvmadeez.com/tvcable_inst...aidedcable.php
Pressure Test http://www.tvmadeez.com/pressure_test/index.php
Cheapest price I've found for Pressure gauge kit. > http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/atd-5550.html
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:56 AM
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I'd read most BTO articles, but hadn't gotten into the one about hooking up/using the pressure gauge (it seemed to need a customer order #/"password"). I ordered the gauge you sent, but got it a bit cheaper on Amazon ($36 w/S&H vs. $42). OReillys had a 0-400psi dash gauge, but BTO suggested using the gauge only for testing (would be nice to keep an eye on pressure - any reason not to keep a dash gauge?).

This site/series had much good TV cable info:
http://www.purplesagetradingpost.com...o/700R4p1.html

Here is more info for this trans:
tag# 015 872KCF0969

from rebuild invoice (by Grant & Dan's in Fremont CA):
H.P. overhaul kit
500 wide band
super servo
H.S. torque convertor
kickdown cable (braided kit from BTO)
pump assembly
note says "build transmission as per customer request for change over"

These are generic descriptions, but I hope will lead to more info (like questions to ask rebuilder)

mistake: carb is Speed Demon, not Street Demon...
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:08 PM
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a bit more info:

trans builder knew this car and said HP parts were used to handle the Engine Factory's 383 power (estd 450 hp)

tension to pull the TV cable out is about 3 lbs for first 1/2", 7-8 lbs to 1", and 13 lbs at max - seems high and is likely why the 69GP accelerator linkage twisted/cracked at a bend by accelerator pedal (the weld is holding).

I tested a friend's TV cable and pull is about 7 lbs max. Trans builder said throttle shaft wear is a valid concern.
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Old 07-23-2009, 03:56 PM
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It sounds to me that the cable is too short, since it is keeping your throttle from opening 100%. It should not in any way interfere with going to wide open throttle.

Does this cable have a threaded barrel adjustment?

Can you post a picture?
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Old 07-23-2009, 07:44 PM
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I've got a 200R4 with a Lokar cable on a Holley HP750. I ended up (at idle) with the cable pulled out about 5/8". At WOT throttle the cable has maybe 1/8" to go before being completely tight. This gave me good trans pressures at idle and WOT and an instant pressure jump with any throttle movement.

Russ
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Old 07-23-2009, 08:43 PM
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carsavvycook: I don't think the cable is too short because carb goes to WOT if I rotate throttle at carb (with much effort), and I can pull TV cable all the way out manually when cable is disconnected from bellcrank (tension is high as noted above).

There is enough adjustment at TVC bracket - here is photo:
http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/sh...cat/500/page/1
Cable is pulled out ~1/8" at idle. The BTO cam is set at minimum (throttle shaft center to TV cable end is 0.9") which is closer than specified 1.1" but it still pulls the TV cable all the way out (~1.5") at WOT.

This thread showed up below (incredible site) and sounds like what I'm dealing with.
700R4 - TV cable tension problem wont allow WOT
He broke a throttle cable, while mine broke cracked the accelerator linkage.


S10xGN: If my TV cable was extended 5/8" at idle, I probably wouldn't get WOT because the TV cable travels 1.5" from idle to WOT, but as long as your pressures are okay, I guess the setup is doing it's job.... I'm anxious to get my gauge to see pressures (may take a week) - am wondering if hard 1-2 shift is caused by too high pressure just off idle (experienced guys would know), but I've read it depends more on governor springs. The cable I have looks similar to the Lokar.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carsavvycook
It sounds to me that the cable is too short, since it is keeping your throttle from opening 100%.
Or the geometry at the carb is outa wack.

Vince
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 60smotorhead
carsavvycook: I don't think the cable is too short because carb goes to WOT if I rotate throttle at carb (with much effort), and I can pull TV cable all the way out manually when cable is disconnected from bellcrank (tension is high as noted above).

There is enough adjustment at TVC bracket - here is photo:
http://www.hotrodders.com/gallery/sh...cat/500/page/1
Cable is pulled out ~1/8" at idle. The BTO cam is set at minimum (throttle shaft center to TV cable end is 0.9") which is closer than specified 1.1" but it still pulls the TV cable all the way out (~1.5") at WOT.

This thread showed up below (incredible site) and sounds like what I'm dealing with.
700R4 - TV cable tension problem wont allow WOT
He broke a throttle cable, while mine broke cracked the accelerator linkage.


S10xGN: If my TV cable was extended 5/8" at idle, I probably wouldn't get WOT because the TV cable travels 1.5" from idle to WOT, but as long as your pressures are okay, I guess the setup is doing it's job.... I'm anxious to get my gauge to see pressures (may take a week) - am wondering if hard 1-2 shift is caused by too high pressure just off idle (experienced guys would know), but I've read it depends more on governor springs. The cable I have looks similar to the Lokar.
I was refering to this qoute from you in your original post.

"My 69 Grand Prix came with a 200 4r tranny (behind a Chevy 383) that was rebuilt/beefed up. It has a Bowtie Overdrive braided cable/cam setup on a Street Demon carb. No matter what I do, I can't get WOT because there seems too much resistance with the TV cable hooked up (almost like the spring in trans is too stiff) - WOT needs a hard push, but is okay with TV cable disconnected. Trans doesn't slip, but has HARD 1-2 shift at 5-10 mph, and won't downshift at WOT (as much as I can get - secondaries only open about 45 degrees)."

I would check the pressures before condeming any part of it. That is with and without the TV cable hooked to the linkage.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carsavvycook

I would check the pressures before condeming any part of it. That is with and without the TV cable hooked to the linkage.
Thanks for confirmation since that's what I planned to do. I suspect (as other poster with same problem) that the trans valve spring is too tight or maybe the valve is stuck/has limited travel, but I don't want to drop the pan/change anything until after baselining pressure.

302 Z28, about carb geometry outa whack. I checked geometry according to various sites, and it appears okay (other than the TVC end NOT being 23degrees toward the firewall at idle). I just checked the BTO "TVmadeEZ" cam adjustment and found min (~0.9" throttle shaft to TV cable end) and max (~1.25") positions both result in ~1.5" pull/travel of TV cable - this because the cam (grooved for the TV cable to follow/lie in) is round and changes deflection of the cable as throttle is opened - very ingenious. Step 5 at bottom of page shows min/max cam positions, here:
http://www.tvmadeez.com/tvcable_inst...aidedcable.php
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:16 AM
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After looking at the BTO photo (Step 5), this setup MAY meet the 23 degree spec. The 23d point would be where the TV cable contacts the cam (relative to Throttle Shaft Center), and not TSC relative to the ball on the end of the TV cable.
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Old 07-24-2009, 05:12 AM
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2004R Pressure Test Info @ bottom of page. > http://www.extremeautomatics.com/techinfo.html
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:50 PM
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Pressure readings are:

idle noTV . idle full TV . 1500 no TV . 1500 full TV
P ... 80 ...... 180 ...... 80 ..... 200
R .. 100 ..... 100 ..... 150 ..... 210
N ... 80 ..... 180 ...... 80 ..... 200
4 ... 80 ...... 90 ...... 80 ..... 185
3 ... 80 ...... 90 ...... 80 ..... 200
2 ... 90 ...... 90 ..... 180 ..... 180
1 ... 85 ...... 85 ..... 175 ..... 175
idle = 1000rpm P,N; 700 in any gear

Not good compared to Extreme Automatics' numbers:

... Excellent pressure ...... Minimum
... No TV / Full TV ...... No TV / Full TV
P ... 90 ..... 275 ...... 70 ..... 225
R .. 230 ..... 230 ..... 200 ..... 200
N ... 90 ..... 275 ...... 70 ..... 225
4 ... 90 ..... 275 ...... 70 ..... 225
3 ... 90 ..... 275 ...... 70 ..... 225
2 . 250+ ... 250+ .... 225 ..... 225
1 . 250+ ... 250+ .... 225 ..... 225

Driving notes:
--"typical" driving/acc pedal steady @ 1800-2000 rpm, any drive gear = 110 psi
--pressure increases immediately with ANY pedal increase
--WOT => 175psi max (only ~75% WOT can be achieved) - it did do a 2-1 automatic kickdown, but this doesn't often happen (never in higher gears)
--O/D at 65mph, 2200rpm => ~100 psi
--trans fluid red, doesn't smell burned (good, but...)
--2 months/1000 miles ago I had pan off and there appeared to be "normal" sediment

Good info... the $35.50 (w/S&H) gauge arrived 27 hours after I ordered it on inet from Fox Run Tools (amazing) - I called first to verify it was in stock (said he had many). Is ATD-5550 recommended by SSedan64 (thanks again).
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Old 07-24-2009, 01:49 PM
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I have had to take transmission pressures, and call TCI to verify my pressure's against theirs, to start customers warranties.

Even though the fluid level was at the Full Hot mark, I was instructed to add 2 additional quarts of fluid, and recheck my pressures, and call back. In both cases, this made my pressures match theirs.

My suggestion, would be to add an additional quart, and recheck your pressures for an increase. If they increase substantially, add a second quart and retest your pressures against the recommended pressures.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:16 PM
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I have a very similar set up to yours. BTO trans w/a steel braided TV cable.

I had a hard/very long shift to 2nd and no downshift because there was too much tension on the cable. I had to take off the rear adjustment nut because it was putting too much tension on the cable with no way to back it off(it was adjusted as far back as I could get it). I had to use a spacer 1/5 the size of the adjustment nut(on the firewall side). It gave the cable enough room raise the pressure up to about 2-3 PSI above the disconnected cable pressure.

That corrected my problem...not sure if it will help, but good luck to you.
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