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-   -   200R4 poor shifting (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/200r4-poor-shifting-137290.html)

hardhatz 04-19-2008 12:16 PM

200R4 poor shifting
 
I just put a used 200R4 behind a 350 in my 66 El Camino. The shifts are quite early, especially so at hard throttle.

Going into 2nd, from either 1st or 3rd, is a very slow process. If I shift manually, it will take about 2 seconds. There is no slippage once the shift is completed.

I have tried every possible setting on the TV, and very tight is the only setting that makes it drivable. The TV cable must be set very tight to get decent shifts at part-throttle, so tight that the secondaries on the Q-Jet cannot open. Even at this setting, the upshifts are at less than 2500 RPM, and are not firm.

Sedate driving, it feels just fine. I have changed fluid & filter twice.

help?.....

johnnya 04-19-2008 12:42 PM

I've experienced the same thing with a BowTie Overdrives 200-4R in my '64 El Camino.
If left to upshift on its own @ WOT, it shifts out of 1st at about 3500-3800RPM, From 2nd to 3rd at about 4500RPM.
I've just learned to hold it in 1st till I'm ready to shift, and so on.
JA

hardhatz 04-20-2008 10:40 AM

I paid closer attention: the manual shift into 2nd takes 3-4 seconds.

hardhatz 04-21-2008 11:19 AM

200r4 Help!!!
 
There must be a few wise ones out there who know what's wrong....
Is it a good idea to try a shift kit?

briscoe 04-21-2008 03:10 PM

2004r
 
Because this unit is a "used trans", some interesting intangibles come into play.

Questions like, how did it work before you installed it into your vehicle, what was the fluid condition, are there any valves in the valve body, such as mtv up or tv valve itself sticking, which will create this problem.

Most early upshifts, in a known good working transmission, will be because of incorrect tv cable adjustment.

When adjusting the cable makes no difference in the upshift pattern one starts to consider if one may have a control issue with the unit, such as sticking valves.

Your tv cable geometry is more than likely a concern, as well, which can also add to your problem, if in fact not be the cause of the problem.

There is a link on this site that explains not only the importance of this geometry, but how to correct it as well.

hardhatz 04-21-2008 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briscoe
Because this unit is a "used trans", some interesting intangibles come into play.

Questions like, how did it work before you installed it into your vehicle, what was the fluid condition, are there any valves in the valve body, such as mtv up or tv valve itself sticking, which will create this problem.

Most early upshifts, in a known good working transmission, will be because of incorrect tv cable adjustment.

When adjusting the cable makes no difference in the upshift pattern one starts to consider if one may have a control issue with the unit, such as sticking valves.

Your tv cable geometry is more than likely a concern, as well, which can also add to your problem, if in fact not be the cause of the problem.

There is a link on this site that explains not only the importance of this geometry, but how to correct it as well.

It came from Pick-a-Part, and was very clean inside.

I used a Q-jet base with the lug that matches the cable end, but I'm not sure about the travel. However, in order to work properly in normal driving, it needs to be quite tight. Setting it looser makes the problem worse. Presently, the TV is at the end of its travel just as the secondaries start to open.

Also, the problem is much more noticeable into 2nd gear. The other gears apply fairly well.

fordSR 04-21-2008 04:46 PM

The geometry on the TV cable is the most important issue with this transmission for proper shifting as well as the longevity of the unit. The cable has a required length of travel from idle to full throttle. The linkage on your carburetor which controls the TV cable must have the stroke to accomplish this. Bowtie Overdrive has a link on their website that describes what this stroke-length should be and how to properly set up the TV cable. The only other possible cause I can think of would be the governor, but I think that's only a remote possibility. When you Pick-a-Part you take your chances, IMO

Jim

hardhatz 04-21-2008 10:32 PM

I actually have a pretty good grasp on how to set up a TV cable, that's not my problem. I have done quite a few swaps that entail TV cables.
I only mentioned the TV to demonstrate that I have tried all that, and tried to use different settings to uncover the issue.

Crosley 04-21-2008 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hardhatz
I actually have a pretty good grasp on how to set up a TV cable, that's not my problem. I have done quite a few swaps that entail TV cables.
I only mentioned the TV to demonstrate that I have tried all that, and tried to use different settings to uncover the issue.


You demonstrated that you have a Q-jet carb... The Q-jet linkage geometry is not correct for the TV cable.

You installed a trans from a junk yard and are surprised it does not operate properly? With no history of the trans , it may be stock or a DIY worked on it that may caused the erratic shifting.

What is your rear end gear ratio? IF it is a 3.73 or 4.10 gear , it may be spinning the governor too quickly , causing the early shifts if the trans came out of a car with 2.73 gear.

:cool:

hardhatz 04-22-2008 12:12 AM

OK... I guess what I'm looking for is someone more gifted in the workings of a 200R4's than in telling me how dumb I am..

Is there anybody out there willing to discuss actual mechanical problems with 200R4s that have a history of causing these symptoms?

curtis73 04-22-2008 03:11 AM

You won't get far insulting the guru of gurus. Crosley is an expert.

You have chosen a junkyard tranny. That should be your first clue. Secondly, 90% of the 200-4r trannys out there are designed and calibrated to operate in vehicles that redline at 4200 with rear ratios in the 2.73:1 range. Simply droping one of these into a performance vehicle is equivalent to taking an F1 race engine and putting it in a pickup truck, then expecting it to be competent at towing 10,000 lbs.

200-4rs are known for their early shifts. They were installed behind Olds 307 engines that struggled to make 140 hp and redlined at 4200. Simply installing one behind a performance engine and expecting it to work in its stock configuration is pretty riduculous.

What you're experiencing are not "symptoms" they are merely the transmission operating properly. You've just made a piss-poor decision, so don't take it out on us.

hardhatz 04-22-2008 09:33 AM

M rear end is a 3.08.
My engine is a basic 350, and I don't race it.
The trans came from a Caprice with a V8 & Q-Jet. I do not know the size.
The Q-Jet base I am using came from this car, as did the TV cable. Whether this provides adequate travel for my application, I do not know, but it seems within normal bounds.

Sorry if I offended any experts by buying from a wrecking yard.. I'm on a tight budget.

I'd be happy if it went to 4200, Its doing about half that. If the TV cable is set "properly", it will shift even sooner... 1,2,3 very quickly, (on the converter) with a neutral between 1st & 2nd.

Downshifting from 3rd to 2nd by shift lever results in a 4 second delay, regardless of TV setting.
Downshifting into 2nd via throttle is not practical, as it results in a very large neutral, and probably will be burning things.

As currently set up, I have driven the car about 3000 miles. Most of it freeway, about half of it towing. Other than the considerable inconvenience of having to manually select gears when using more than a light throttle, too-soft shifts, and not having full throttle travel, there has been no problem.

briscoe 04-22-2008 11:04 AM

2004r
 
I will reiterate, you will have to correct your tv geometry.

That would be, first things first.

Now, don't apologize for being on a tight budget, these are tight times.

You instead may want to apologize for being insolent, to people that are trying to help you and for not being sapient enough to realize it.

However, this is an issue of morality and while we may only have to deal with it now, you will have to deal with it the rest of your life.

Now, as for your transmission concern. Your dealing with a trans you know little about, relative to it's history, so that does create some problems.

Do you have access to, or own a pressure gauge?

Short of removing parts, like the valve body and governor, from this transmission, the results from a pressure reading may be the best way to determine what's going on with this unit.

Then, you may still have to remove parts, comes with the territory, when you have to buy a junk yard transmission.

hardhatz 04-23-2008 09:45 PM

I'm insolent and have life-long morality failings because I grasp TV cable function?...

I guess I thought I could find good guys who want to help each other benefit from their experiences. Sorry, my mistake. I wouldn't have treated any of you like that.

bnewsom 04-24-2008 11:18 PM

Hardhatz,
I reread this thread and can't find the part where you were disrespectful to anyone so don't worry about it. I also can't find where "you are surprised" that your junkyard tranny isn't performing like you want it to. All I read is you asking for some suggestions to solve a problem and answering about what you had done. I did see where someone told you q-jets are not used with this tranny and this is not true. I'm using tv cable bracket off a later model qjet on my mid 70's qjet. Too bad post counts don't always equal IQ surely don't give anybody the right to dog another. On all but Buick GN's and Monte Carlo SS's and maybe another car or two, this tranny was calibrated for low torque engines and gave a soft and slow shift at low rpms. You can recalibrate it with a shift kit, a govenor change and a servo change. Just doing this will fix the shifts assuming it is otherwise healthy but it still won't live too long if you are hard on it without making some hard parts upgrades. One thing you can try before doing all this is set the TV cable per repair manual instructions, then with the engine off, fully depress and quickly release the throttle. Do this about ten times quickly and then retest. Repeat this a few times and you may get lucky. Idea is there may be some trash hanging up the valve. Also follow this link and spend some time in this forum http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/transmission-talk/ and then ask some questions and these guys will give you some help.
Good Luck,
Bob


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