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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timothale
Some jurisdictions require only licensed electricians to do elect work and only licensed contractor can get a permit. Other places the home owner can get the permit. The whole key here is do it right, have it checked. 10 years ago I bought an old farm, we did the walk thru and could see a lot of elect work that didnít' meet code. My son checked the incoming line, Romex ran thru the trees and it was not powered (romex in trees not to code). This was an estate sale so there was no homeowner disclosure of permit-known defect possible. There was a new meter on one side of the house and on the barn side the old box was bare. Someone had wired it so when the back porch was on it powered the shop. barn and horse stalls. I was gone one Sunday and my son turned on the back porch lite and it did about $ 50 k damage. Lucky I had full replacement insurance and 500 deductible.
http://www.cityofboise.org/Departmen...ingProcess.pdf

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 02-05-2010, 05:39 PM
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Like I said, I needed more info from diesel smoke, to give him advice. I don't know if he is running this cord from an dryer outlet, down a sidewalk, thru a doorway, or what he intends to do. If diesel Smoke gives more info I will gladly try to help him. There are many ways to make electricity turn on an air compressor, welder, drill press, light, but that doesn't make it safe.
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Old 02-05-2010, 07:18 PM
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I just "ran" a single dedicated 220 for my welder into my garage. I use the term "ran" loosley as the fusebox is on the same was as my 220 receptacle.
While it is a quite simple hook up to acomplish, And please note I am not a "licenced anything" except destroyer of working objects.....
I will offer there pieces of advice...
1. Pickup a do it yourself electrical book from Home Depot or Lowes and look through it, you will likely find exactly what you want to know. Heck, you dont need to buy it, just have a look at it and read it.

2. If your gonna run a welder requiring a max amperage draw of 30 amps, and it uses a popular 50 amp receptacle like a Nema 6-50 (like my Hobart does) use a wire that can handle 50 amps or better. The reason is pretty simple for this, perhaps you aquire another "Toy" that uses the same type of plug as the welder, but you overlook the amperage draw it pulls when in use. Its easy to think "I can simply plug it in this outlet, there the same" and next thing you know you got a "smoking wall snake" through the house....lol

3. Run the propper breaker on the other side to compliment the outlet and the line. You could place a lower breaker in the circuit because your welder only draws say 30 amps, but again I would rather have the power needed onhand without requiring a run to the Depot. Most welders have an internal circuit breaker built in that will keep itself in check, I wouldnt buy one without it.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 02-06-2010, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideQuality
I just "ran" a single dedicated 220 for my welder into my garage. I use the term "ran" loosley as the fusebox is on the same was as my 220 receptacle.
While it is a quite simple hook up to acomplish, And please note I am not a "licenced anything" except destroyer of working objects.....
I will offer there pieces of advice...
1. Pickup a do it yourself electrical book from Home Depot or Lowes and look through it, you will likely find exactly what you want to know. Heck, you dont need to buy it, just have a look at it and read it.

2. If your gonna run a welder requiring a max amperage draw of 30 amps, and it uses a popular 50 amp receptacle like a Nema 6-50 (like my Hobart does) use a wire that can handle 50 amps or better. The reason is pretty simple for this, perhaps you aquire another "Toy" that uses the same type of plug as the welder, but you overlook the amperage draw it pulls when in use. Its easy to think "I can simply plug it in this outlet, there the same" and next thing you know you got a "smoking wall snake" through the house....lol

3. Run the propper breaker on the other side to compliment the outlet and the line. You could place a lower breaker in the circuit because your welder only draws say 30 amps, but again I would rather have the power needed onhand without requiring a run to the Depot. Most welders have an internal circuit breaker built in that will keep itself in check, I wouldnt buy one without it.
Good points
btw, the circuit breaker in the panel protects the wire from the breaker to the recepticle, not the device plugged into it.
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Old 02-06-2010, 11:31 PM
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Did I describe that incorectly?

LOL
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RideQuality
Did I describe that incorectly?

LOL
No, I understood you.
I have heard to many people think that the breaker protects the appliance. I just wanted to clarify it fo those following this thread that were not aware of the fact.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2010, 05:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
No, I understood you.
I have heard to many people think that the breaker protects the appliance. .
Good point, this is a common misconception people have.

Vince
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:47 AM
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Electrical Info

Hey Friends, While I avoid giving electrical advise on this forum due to liability concerns, I can provide some information on some of the issues mentioned here. I have seen some bad advise given on several threads in the past and tended to avoid comment.

On any given circuit, the hot conductor(s) (wire)(s) & the neutral conductor(wire) are considered normal current carrying conductors. The ground conductor(wire) is not considered a normal current carrying conductor, it is only there to carry current in the event of a fault(dead short or leakage to ground) in order to trip the supply breaker to prevent personal injury or fire. It is considered a conductor(wire) that is not normally carrying current, that is why it can be non-insulated(bare).

Okay, the Nema 10 (3-wire) design versus the Nema 14 (4-wire);
A long time ago(telling my age) 220-240 volt appliances used the 3-wire design(dryers,ovens,etc.) All the components within the appliance operated on 220 volts(heating elements,timers,indicator lights,etc). With no component requiring 110 volts, a neutral conductor was not required, hence the three wire setup.
Time passed, appliances changed, introduction of foreign appliances to our markets began. 220/240 volt dryers, stoves and such began showing up with internal components that were 120 volt. These appliances were designed for four wire cords(not supplied generally). Home owners had 3-wire receptacles,
and three wire cords. The illegal connection of three wire cords to four wire appliances began. If you jump the appliance neutral post to the ground post, it will operate under a dangerous condition where the ground conductor(not a normal current carrying conductor) becomes the neutral and starts normally carrying current(its bare remember). Its connected to a ground rod,ground bus, metal piping, metal frame work, etc. This is when the fires began, people had bare wires carrying current, producing heat in their walls, attics, etc. There was a case of a ground wire that went open(cut,broke) in a trailer and the natural gas pipe became the neutral for an appliance. It worked for a long time until one day the trailer was blown to the moon and left a big fire hole in the ground. Inspectors determined what happened, the current flowing through the gas pipe had gradually degraded the black iron pipe down very slowly, all pieces of pipe found had little pinholes through out the surface.

This is where NFPA and NEC changed the code requirements to Nema 14(4-wire) receptacles.

Okay regarding the welders with the 50 amp plugs. Probably 95% of the time they can be run on a 30 amp circuit. The 50 amp supply circuit and 50 amp plug on the welder are sized for the surge current when striking an arc with the machine turned all the way up to the highest current setting and also if the rod sticks. This results in nuisance tripping of a 30 amp breaker and surging/maintaining 30 amp rated wire at a 50 amp level which can smoke the wire and become a fire hazard. Oh, and notice its only a three wire plug, there is no neutral requirement in the welding machine(all internal components operate at the 220/240 volt level).

Okay, regarding the advise by some electrician that a 4 wire temporary cord is ok versus a 3-wire cord being not ok. All too often, a fellow might get the bright idea to turn his 3-wire welding machine cord into his shop feed. Mounts him a little panel, hooks up that 3-wire cord to his panel and starts running everything 120 volt in the shop using a ground conductor(not a normal current carrying conductor) as a neutral(a normal current carrying conductor) resulting in the hazards I explained above.

In closing, I'd like to add that if you're giving folks advise on electrical work, you better hope you definitely know what you're talking about because of liability issues. Sure, anybody can hook up a few wires and get something to work, but the real electricians are trained not only in the wiring hook up, but also in the NEC/NFPA code requirements necessary for avoiding personal injury or fire prevention. All the code requirements are written in charcoal and blood. olnolan
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2010, 09:55 AM
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Ok So I'm using a 50 amp breaker and a welder receptacle. My welder is going to be 10' from my panel. What do I need in the form of cable do I need to use to make it work and be safe
Of course no one wants to burn their house down at all
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 02-07-2010, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLNOLAN
On any given circuit, the hot conductor(s) (wire)(s) & the neutral conductor(wire) are considered normal current carrying conductors...
Okay, the Nema 10 (3-wire) design versus the Nema 14 (4-wire);
Thanks for that history and explanation OLNOLAN. Very informative. Explains some the "mysteries" I've wondered about.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:11 AM
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OLNOLAN

GREAT POST! Very well written!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratdoggy
Ok So I'm using a 50 amp breaker and a welder receptacle. My welder is going to be 10' from my panel. What do I need in the form of cable do I need to use to make it work and be safe
Of course no one wants to burn their house down at all
You need a large enough cable to carry 50amps for 10 feet. There are formulas to figure this out. If it is only 10" it "MAY" be safe to use the same size wire that the welder cord is made from, consult a wiring chart.
The most important thing to remember is everything must be rated to carry at least the rated current of the breaker being used. This is the most common mistake and the easiest way to start a fire. If you run a 50amp breaker and a 30amp receptacle, the receptacle may fail before the breaker pops, same with under sizeed wire.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 09:45 AM
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LOL, been away for a long time, come back and find its the same old arguement about wiring garages.

A monkey can be told to do most anything, but do they know all the inherent risks and what to do when they run into a wrench in the gears?

Electricians usually go through much schooling and training to gain their knowledge, and electrical contractors pay big money for liability insurance. That is what you pay for when you pay a licensed electrician to do a job. Wiring a garage, or a house, is childs play. Wiring an outlet is even easier. If and when you know what you're doing. It sounds to me like there are a couple of knowledgable sparkies here, and a lot of want to be's. Remember, make a mistake doing a wiring job and it can cost you or a loved one, their life.

Liability is a biotch

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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 11:22 AM
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Waiting for the Electrician or Someone Like Him

OLNOLAN - Great Post

A few thoughts:
I know a little about electricity (I have a BSEE Degree), the one thing I am absolutely sure about is that when it comes to my home, my family, and my car in the garage I will pay the electrician!

An important note on the difference between 110 and 220 circuits, at 110 volts depending on your body resistance (varies widely) you can accidently touch a live circuit and probably survive (no guarentee). With 220, you get your body in the current path and you probably will die.

As a Navy Electronics Technician we were taught that .01 Amp of current you will feel (verified by personal experience), .1 Amp of current will kill you. This is assuming that your heart is in the current path.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 02-11-2010, 01:02 PM
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I said it in post 4, if you don't know what you are doing hire someone. Electricity, especially 220, is nothing to screw around with. You could burn your house down or kill someone and if it is determined it was due to faulty illegal wiring your insurance may be void. If you want to save a little some electricians will agree to let you pull your own wire as long as they make the connections.
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