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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 11:27 AM
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Do you guys realize this is all about money? They don't care of regulations, permits, who installs wiring. They care about how much revenue it will bring in and how much money will come out of your hard earned pocketbook. It's that simple!.. How do I know this? I live in California!!! and there will be more permits, more insurance licensing required, why? Because everyone needs more revenue. especially CA, because the State is going bankrupt. The burden is on the contractors and consumers... Wisconsin is looking good right now! LOL...

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 12:09 PM
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Once one state gets away with it the others follow suit...Pretty soon they'll tell us we have to buy a new car every four years or pay a fine or get health insurance.......or pay a fine or get ...........just pay the fine we need the money ....and dont die before were done with you or your kids will have to pay double....
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cboy
I live in a rural/remote area that is somewhat similar. When I built our house a few years ago (2001) the home owner was even allowed to hang their own meter base and wire it to the main box. In fact, the local power company, Wisconsin Public Service, provided DIYers with a very well written and illustrated guide for doing it. WPS would then come out and look over your installation and breaker box to insure it was all up to snuff and then they would install the meter and throw the main power switch out by the road.

I also wired the entire house including running 220 service to my shop, some 150 feet away.

This is now changing, however. Within the past couple years Electrical contractors have used their clout to pass regulations requiring licenced electricians on ALL new construction in Wisconsin. No licensed electrician, no permit. This was done following a successful maneuver by the Plumbing Contractors a few years earlier which took the same action...requiring a licenced plumber to get a building permit.

Mind you, these changes in the permitting process were not made based on public outcry over homeowners blowing themselves up due to poor plumbing or burning themselves down because of poor electrical circuits. They were made exclusively at the insistence of the plumbing and electrical contractors who appear to be the only beneficiaries of the action.

Don't misunderstand. I have nothing against effective building codes to insure the health and safety of building occupants. I support them 100%. But if the DIYer can match the work of a licensed electrician to the point where it will pass inspection, then I see these sorts of rules as nothing more than a government orchestrated monopoly, a mechanism for eliminating true competition, and another major contributor to the high cost of housing.
CBOY this is happening everywhere.............and you are correct it's for the money. Had old friend that I worked with many years ago tell me "If you want to know the answer as to why something is done the way it is....just follow the money" simply what money is lining who's pockets. My son is a tile contractor and was hired by the owner of condo apartment to replace all of the tile in the apt .Now this apt was in a high rise condo building on the Gulf in the city of Orange Beach ,AL. My son goes down there the first week of Dec last year,goes in and starts demolition and management of the condo shows up and stops them from working says they can't work in this condo unless they have a contractors license from the city of Orange Beach. My son told them that he had a contractors license from the county and from the state of Alabama, he was told ....now get this "They did not recognize any license from any where but Orange Beach" well my son just about blew a gasket..........to make a long story short ,it toke him 4 days to get license, at a cost of 350 bucks,he never heard another word out of these people,no one ever came there to do any inspection. My son found out later that the same thing had happened to other tradesmen there and was told that the whole thing was because of the plumbers not getting work in the area.
I went down there to recut the floor shoe molding and attach it to the wall and while I was waiting on him to get parts of the floor done ,I looked at the wiring that went to the appliances in the kitchen, I could not believe the way some of the wall receptacles were wired , I am a retired aircraft electrician so I know something about wiring ,now I know there is a big difference in aircraft wiring and home wiring no comparison ,but I had a hard time believing a licensed electrician (or a apprentice electrician ) had wired something so crappy . All it showed me was,just because you have a license it does't mean that you can do the job that you have the license for,but you could pass the test.
My.02
Kenny
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by T-bucket23
You do not need to be ASE certified to be trained to do brakes and it does not assure that it will be done right. All an ASE proves is you can read a book and memorize enough to pass the test. I know "ASE certified techs" who should not be changing oil.

A 50AMP 220 circuit is not a simple circuit, it has a lot of potential problems if it is done improperly or the wrong parts and pieces are used. It is not cut and dry. Most people attempting these have no idea about voltage drop over distance, the difference between aluminum and copper wire sizes and connectors.

Following your theory a trained electrician should know how to do brake jobs.

A bad wiring job can kill you or burn your house down months or years later and this is usually what happens.

The bottom line is if you are not 100% sure what you are doing with something as dangerous as brakes or home electrical you should not touch it. I have also seen several cars burned down by "Mechanics" who dont understand electrical wiring.
I was trying to make a point. Which is that the people on the forum are most likely capable of wiring some simple circuits. I don't think that if I need surgery that I would do it myself just because I know how to use an exacto knife and sew. I said that if it's in your comfort zone you should be able to do it. A license to hang sheetrock? That is insane!! How would the town know? Follow people from Lowes? My theory actually is that a trained electrician should be able to do brakes because he has a mechanical aptitude above 80% of the people out there. I just don't think that an electrician is the only person capable of doing electric. Don't get me wrong...I have Union electricians do work at the plant I manage. They are usually very good and they do know more than me.

Last edited by Ratdoggy; 02-15-2010 at 06:29 PM.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Shelby1
CBOY this is happening everywhere.............and you are correct it's for the money. Had old friend that I worked with many years ago tell me "If you want to know the answer as to why something is done the way it is....just follow the money" simply what money is lining who's pockets. My son is a tile contractor and was hired by the owner of condo apartment to replace all of the tile in the apt .Now this apt was in a high rise condo building on the Gulf in the city of Orange Beach ,AL. My son goes down there the first week of Dec last year,goes in and starts demolition and management of the condo shows up and stops them from working says they can't work in this condo unless they have a contractors license from the city of Orange Beach. My son told them that he had a contractors license from the county and from the state of Alabama, he was told ....now get this "They did not recognize any license from any where but Orange Beach" well my son just about blew a gasket..........to make a long story short ,it toke him 4 days to get license, at a cost of 350 bucks,he never heard another word out of these people,no one ever came there to do any inspection. My son found out later that the same thing had happened to other tradesmen there and was told that the whole thing was because of the plumbers not getting work in the area.
I went down there to recut the floor shoe molding and attach it to the wall and while I was waiting on him to get parts of the floor done ,I looked at the wiring that went to the appliances in the kitchen, I could not believe the way some of the wall receptacles were wired , I am a retired aircraft electrician so I know something about wiring ,now I know there is a big difference in aircraft wiring and home wiring no comparison ,but I had a hard time believing a licensed electrician (or a apprentice electrician ) had wired something so crappy . All it showed me was,just because you have a license it does't mean that you can do the job that you have the license for,but you could pass the test.
My.02
Kenny
Did your son call the city for an inspection? If not why would they show up?

Why would Plumbers care at all about tile layers?

Yes the city wants money, no different than working in most places, if you are within a govermental jurisdiction you gotta pay to play in their sandbox.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 02-15-2010, 09:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Fool
Did your son call the city for an inspection? If not why would they show up?

Why would Plumbers care at all about tile layers?

Yes the city wants money, no different than working in most places, if you are within a govermental jurisdiction you gotta pay to play in their sandbox.
No my son did not call anybody ,the city had told the condo management that any body that worked in this condo had to have a city contractors license . This was brought on by some plumbers from out of town coming in under bidding jobs and using undocumented labor. Some of the local plumbers went to the city and got the requirements changed . So now if you do any kind of work in the condos that are part of Orange Beach you have to have a contractors license..... would you believe that the lady's that clean the condos have to have a contractors license?.......every single one of them!!
I agree that there need to be permits and inspections.But these people went way beyond reason..........
Oh the permits and license's are twice as expensive as any where in this area. There is probably a Billion Dollars worth of condos in this area and I'll bet they are running their city government off of these fees.
Kenny
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2010, 04:15 AM
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Yeah, it reminds me of the MOB wanting their piece of the action..Pay them and you'll have a nice place to park with no parking tickets at the job site and nothing gets stolen,dont pay and all kinds of wierd stuff happens.I guess thats where the City and countys got this stuff from...If theres a dollar to be earned your lucky to end up with a quarter....and then theres taxes...
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Old 02-16-2010, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kleen56
Do you guys realize this is all about money? They don't care of regulations, permits, who installs wiring. They care about how much revenue it will bring in and how much money will come out of your hard earned pocketbook.
99% there. We have to remember, WE are the government. We have allowed power hungry bureaucrats and businesses to dictate how we are going to live instead of telling them how they are going to work for us. We have to change things.

Taxes on home improvements are a good portion of why you have to get a permit. I have a real problem with this. We tax people who improve the community. A person with a run down shack should be taxed higher than a guy who is fixing up his place and, in so doing, improves the overall community.

Wichita, KS floated the idea that they were going to tax people based on the number of trees in their yard. I let them know I would be buying a chain saw! Lots of other folks did, too. They decided they didn't want to be responsible for deforestation so they dropped that idea. Pretty stupid to come up with it in the first place.
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Old 02-16-2010, 08:11 AM
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costs

Now (well as of April) a contractor has to get certified in lead practices to work on any pre 1968 house- 350 for the course, another 350 to register the company with the epa and all the expense to get the hepa vac etc. Wonder how they will enforce this- another fee added on top of the expense of the
building permit fee, the zoning fee, the wetlands comission fee, the costal
managment fee, the training fee etc. Also here the permits start at a base
cost of 1000 job cost so if you need a permit to replace 1 door or window
you pay for a 1000 job even if it's only a 200 job.

And the beat goes on.... Jim
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