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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bates_k
Now I remember why I don't come here very often,

Generally speaking, a 289 will make more power than a 283, for one reason, bore. You can safely bore a
289 to 4.040, can you do that with a 283 BLOCK?? Maybe but cylinder walls will be wafer thin, so not
too good for 400hp... If you have a good solid bottom end in the 289, I'd really suggest building a
Boss 289 with the 2V Cleveland heads, a Victor Jr, and 750cfm carb, and a custom ground hydraulic
roller cam...

I can hear the whining and crying already, why? 'cause the heads are too big, the manifold is too big,
the carb is too big...
No whining and crying from me,.... but this is the only way a 289 is going to beat the 283. If you have to do the 289 with factory iron Windsor heads of some sort(OP keeps saying stock heads ) then it will be a big loser to the 283, it is well known that Windsor heads don't compare well with SBC stock heads and their potential.

Neither the 283 or the 289 are going to hit a 350 hp goal from the $2500 budget unless you buy used parts, and the Chevy market is far bigger than the Ford.

A $2500 budget barely covers a basic rebuild, let alone performance parts

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepracer427
i am limited to a certain amount of cubes in the offroad racing i am doing
How's about you post the rules or a link to them, so we know what the hell we're dealing w/here?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
No whining and crying from me,....

snip

and the Chevy market is far bigger than the Ford.
The only reason chevys cost less is most hotrod builders don't know his butt from a hole in the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
A $2500 budget barely covers a basic rebuild, let alone performance parts
You've obviously never been broke, I've done rebuilds for less than $1200, and had them run for
years...
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 10:33 PM
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These are how the points work

3. Engine Factor Points:
a. 4-Cylinder
1. Up through 150 cu in. flathead............. 70 points
2. Up through 160 cu. in. overhead.......... 80 points
3. 161 cu. in. and more............... 55% x actual cu. in.
b. 5 & 6 Cylinder (Straight)
1. Up through 290 cu. in............ 57% x actual cu. in.
2. 291 cu. in. and over............... 80% x actual cu. in.
c. 6-Cylinder (V6)***225 Jeep V6 engine is allowed .060
clean up and still claim 65% x actual cu. in.***
1. Up through 225 cu. inc.......... 65% x actual cu. in.
2. 226 through 290 cu. in.......... 70% x actual cu. in.
3. 291 cu. in. and over.............. 80% x actual cu. in.
Rotary engines.......................... 175% x actual cu. in.
d. V-8 and up
1. Up through 420 cu. in.......... 80% x actual cu. in.
2. 421 cu. in. and over............. 85% x actual cu. in.
All partial cubic inches will be moved to the next highest inch.
Example: 301.2 cu. in. will the 302 cu. in.
26
ADD-ON POINTS
1. External Add On Points 6-8 Cyl. 4 Cyl
Non Cross
Flow Head
a. Stock 4-barrel manifold ..........................5 5
b. Stock 4-barrel carburetor ......................10 5
c. Performance intake or
mod. stock............................................. 15 5
d. Performance carburetor ........................15 5
e. Two (2) or more
carburetors ....................................25 max 10 max
f. OEM Throttle Body
Injection ................................................15 5
g. OEM Port Injection ..............................20 10
h. Fuel Injection ........................................40 40
i. Alcohol........................................... .......10 10
j. Supercharger/Roots type
Blower ........................1/2 point per cu. in.
k. Turbocharger .............1/2 point per cu. in.
Minimum points for
Turbocharger...................................... .100 60
l. Second Turbocharger ............................15 15
m.Non-stock carb. adapter or spacer
unless carb. intake, turbo, or nitrous
oxide are claimed....................................5 5
n. OEM Multiple Carb. Intake....................5 5
o. OEM Multiple Carburetor ....................20 5
27
2. Internal Add On Points 6-8 Cyl. 4 Cyl.
Non Cross
Flow Head
a. Valves............................................ ........15 5
1) Any valve configuration not matching
OEM for engine being claimed
2) Valve or Plug Angle and centerline
modification unless valves
are claimed .......................................15 5
b. Aftermarket Heads................................45 20
c. Porting........................................... ........20 5
Polishing sand blasting or grinding of any port
area or combustion chamber
d. Milling
1) Reducing combustion chamber volume to less
than factory specifications for engine
being claimed
a. If piston not claimed.....................15 5
2) Cylinder block deck height
Reducing deck to less than factory
specifications for engine being
claimed, unless
pistons are claimed ...........................15 5
e. Pistons........................................... ........20 10
1) Non-stock configuration
2) Includes ring and wrist pin
f. Camshaft
1) Hydraulic or Solid Cam .500 or under
Gross Valve Lift .................................5 5
Not considered internal change
2) Hydraulic Cam
Over .500 Gross Valve Lift ..............15 10
28
3) Solid Cam or hydraulic roller
Over .500 Gross Valve Lift ..................20 10
4) Roller Cam ...........................................25 10
5) .500 or under gross valve lift roller
hydraulic Cam .....................................10 5
g. Connecting Rods (any non-steel rod).........5 5
h. OEM High Performance (10.25 to 1 compression
ration or higher) Production Engine Components
(all stock small block Chevrolet heads with OEM
C2.02 and 1.60 valves must claim OEM valves
and OEM head casting)
1) OEM Valves .........................................10 10
2) OEM Head Castings.............................10 10
3) OEM Piston..........................................15 15
i. More than two (2) valves per cylinder and
dual cam must claim OEM valves.
j. Nitrous Oxide 6-8 Cyl. 4 Cyl.
1) One (1) System
a. 0-200 total points ..........................50% 50%
b. 201-300 total points ......................40% 40%
c. 301 and up total points..................30% 30%
2) Two (2) Systems
a. 0-200 total points ..........................60% 60%
b. 201-300 total points ......................50% 50%
c. 301 and up total points..................40% 40%
Each additional nitrous systems will be assessed at 5% higher
than the previous number of systems. See examples below:
3) Three (3) Systems
a. 0-200 total points ..........................65% 65%
b. 201-300 total points ......................55% 55%
c. 301 and up total points..................45% 45%
29
4) Four (4) Systems
a. 0-200 total points ......................70% 70%
b. 201-300 total points ..................60% 60%
c. 301 and up total points..............50% 50%
(All Nitrous Oxide points will be rounded to the next highest
point. Example: 89.3 will be 90).
3. Non Performance Modifications
(Modifications not requiring add on points)
a. Port matching of gasket area not to exceed 1/4” from
gasket surface measured by depth.
b. Modifications to valve pocket.
Top Cut - Any angle less than
valve seat angle.
Stock Valve Seat Angle - any
width
Bottom Cut - Not to exceed 70
degree angle.
a. Measured from top of valve seat to bottom of
bottom cut
b. Top cut may not be larger than 1/4”
more than head diameter of valve
(1/8” per side)
c. Modifications to valve per EC4WDA
specifications.
Valve job must occur in
this 1/4 inch area.
30
d. When aftermarket pistons are claimed, the removal of
the flame propagation lump in the combustion chamber
is allowed without claiming porting. The milling or
grinding must be limited to the length and width of the
lump, and in no way shall touch any other part of the
combustion chamber.
e. Dry sump oiling system
f. Fly cut stock pistons. Valve relief only.
g. Non stock rocker arm with the same ratio as year
engine being claimed.
h. O-ring to block and/or head
i. Non stock valve retainers and keepers of stock
configuration.
j. Heat risers may be blocked or filled but most be 1/4”
from valve pocket.
31
CLASSES
Super Pro
XXA Optional 4WD
XXB
XXC
XXD
XA Less than 4.0
XB 4.1 - 5.1
XC 5.2 - 6.2
XD 6.3 - 7.3
Pro Modified
A 7.4 - 8.4
B 8.5 - 9.5
C 9.6 - 10.6
D 10.7 - 12.2
Super Modified
E 12.3 - 13.7
F 13.8 - 15.3
G 15.4 - 18.8
Modified Stock
H 18.9 - 22.7
I 22.8 & Over
J F Head & Flat 4 Cyl.
32
Classes for move up:
a) Class J can move all the way to XA.
Warning: Any false statements concerning engine powers
and /or modifications will be grounds for finding the
vehicle illegal, and barring the competitor from
competition.
b) All Super Pro classes at club discretion to run 4WD
optional classes XXD - XXA.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bates_k
The only reason chevys cost less is most hotrod builders don't know his butt from a hole in the ground.



You've obviously never been broke, I've done rebuilds for less than $1200, and had them run for
years...
Are you saying there is a good stock iron windsor head?? True, Ford is not more expensive when buying new parts, but used Chevy parts are everywhere. It will take aftermarket, or GT-40P heads and porting to get the 289 to run with the Chevy, and the OP said stock head castings.


Full rebuilds(bore/hone, grind crank, resize rods, new pistons, valvejob/guides. flat mill, etc on heads) for $1200??

All machining and new parts, reusing only crank, rods, head, and block, plus the tin and fasteners, to make 350 hp with only 283 cubes for $1200?? Prove it. not some redneck re-ring job, or free machining from a buddy or yourself.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 11:24 PM
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The OP is asking which engine would be cheaper to build to 350hp. He wants to stay under 300 ci for an offroad obstacle racing class. From the video he posted, this engine will be running WFO for the duration of the race. It doesn't sound like he has either a Ford 289 or a Chev 283 in his possesion. This isn't about which is a better engine, Ford or Chevy, but which can be built to a 1.25 HP/ CI level and stay together for a season or two of racing for the least amount of money. He has stated he'd like to stay around $2500. I assume he'd like it to hang together, repairing a fragged engine is hard on the old budget.
I think the 289 is a fine engine. I also think sbc parts are easier to find, although 283 stuff may be drying up.
If OP is indeed starting from scratch, IMO he will have a hard time achieving his goal on $2500. These engines will need to spin pretty high to achieve 350 hp. The 289 achieved it's 271 hp @ 6000 rpm from the factory. Changing to roller cam and valve train ain't cheap.
bates_k, I have been broke and done things on the cheap. I reused head gaskets, replaced broken rings with used, replaced burned valves with good junkyard pickings, bolted it all together and ran it for a couple years. 8BA flathead Ford in a 46 Merc. I didn't expect it to hold up under racing conditions.
Instead of getting your knickers in a wad about hotrodders who don't know their butts from whatever, why don't you give the OP a detailed account,carb to pan, including parts and machining costs, of how to build a reliable 289 that puts out at least 350 fwhp, and will do it under offroad racing conditions for a season or two, for $2500.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-06-2010, 11:24 PM
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I couldn't make heads or tails from that rules list
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 03:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
I couldn't make heads or tails from that rules list
The FIRST thing that popped out at me is- MANY (most?) of these rules are unenforceable.

One protest causing a tear-down will result in a race w/no results that night, or even that week, if there are counter protests- which there will be.

It will also create an avalanche of similar claims and counter claims- if a claimer rule is in effect.

Too many rules and no way of enforcing any but the basic, visual, outside or "external" points, w/the possible exception of a displacement pump will create a haven for cheating.

If it were me, I'd be real tempted to build a hot short stroke, 4" bore engine right at the CI limit of where I want to run, w/o regard for internal points- and make them prove it isn't what I say it is.

You can BET that's what is already going on, IMO.

OR- build an engine absolutely within the letter of the law, and protest every last vehicle that finished in front of you. I guarantee- given these rules- they will ALL be in violation for something.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 06:30 AM
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Jeepracer,
the rules are similar to drag race comp and bracket racing classes,,,and the intent is to give guys on a low budget a chance to win against big bucks budget racers...
(ex: there is no 300 cubes limit on V8 class cubes,,just a penalty with more cubes)
it makes for fun races to watch,,,because to "consistantly" stay within the allowed ET is as much about the driver as the car....

you need to pick a class and ET bracket "first" to race in....
then build to be within the rules (including the chassis and weight and safety rules) and have just enough acceleration to be able to break out/go under the allowed minumum ET by just a tad,,,,
so with a excellent launch and ahead of the competitor you can "coast" thru the lights to not break out (or bad launch keep it floored to catch him)

hope this makes sense,,,you work backwards from the ET to determine what the "whole" car "can be" to win...

ex:
depending on the rest of the rules,,,a truly oem stock 271HP (blueprinted) 289 could be the best motor choice but as likely for off road a stock 200HP 2V 289 is better because of it's cam's TQ curve (plus you don't have to wind it up and beat the hell out of the motor)...
TQ=acceleration rate
HP=top speed

there is a huge "loop hole" in those rules,,,doesn't say anything about ign and timing (or I missed it?),,,and that alone can be a 30HP/30TQ+ difference!!!

my bad luck that my then teenage son wanted to go mud bog racing for his first real competition experience...
after reading the local track rules (more emphasis on original stock motor HP rating),,,we built a all "stock" 79 Ford (blue printed with timing corrected and improved) 351M 2V 4x4 for very few bucks in the motor...
as soon as we got the gears and tires and suspension sorted out for the tracks he did have a blast and won often (without spending all of his hard earned Taco Bell money on it to keep it running)

LOL,,,my wife would not allow it to be parked in front of the house,,,but "purdy" is pointless for mud bogs!!!

edit:
then later when he did gets some bucks and from what he learned on the 79' called "the Bubba Truck" by the family,,,,he built "Bubba II" in the second pic'...
truly a "cartoon" on wheels...
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Last edited by red65mustang; 03-07-2010 at 06:40 AM.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 06:44 AM
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It sounds like a compitition geared for cheaters. How could you verify the engine without a complete teardown?

I got cheated so many times in mud bogging (stock 33" and under) it was join em' or leave. I left!

Unfortunatly, there is always some out there that can't stick with the rules and they get away with it. It's not worth the time and money to get chumped in the end.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 08:38 AM
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jeepracer,

post a link on this thread to that video mentioned above,,,, so we can see what your dealing with for a race course...
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Old 03-07-2010, 02:56 PM
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35hotrod, exactly.

the only way i could be torn down is if i won and they thought i was cheating so i dont wanna risk it.

here is the link to the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo2DNM7QRkA

i would like to run D class if it helps.

Last edited by Jeepracer427; 03-07-2010 at 07:18 PM.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 09:54 PM
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I would go with a 289 over a 283 Chevy, the 289 already has a 4 inch bore and it weighs less than the Chevy.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 03-07-2010, 11:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onebadmerc
I would go with a 289 over a 283 Chevy, the 289 already has a 4 inch bore and it weighs less than the Chevy.
What stock Windsor head is going to make this a winner??. OP says he has to use a s t o c k head.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 03:26 AM
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A 2-valve 4.6 SOHC mod-motor using a Edelbrock Victor Jr. carb intake and a MSD 6 Mod ignition controller will make well over 300 HP w/stock heads, cams and a 650 carb.

You couldn't spend $2500 on this deal if you tried. I'm thinking you could have 2 engines for this money- 1 built, the other a long block.

Only difference between it and a 283/289 is a penalty for the cams, as long as the 283/289 was going to use aftermarket 4- bbl. intakes. But it has a bit smaller CID than either, so you get a little of that back.

I also know this idea will not fly w/the masses. A Ford w/OHC, not known (except by the Mustang guys) as being anything but a taxi engine.

But I WILL say this- You are not- IMHO- going to slay ANYONE w/just another SBx engine! It is going to take some "outside the box" thinking like the above to get a competitive advantage.

Every knuckle dragger out there is a guru on the SBC/SBF already- and there are a few KD'ers that are damned sharp. With your small budget, if you run Chevy/Ford SB's, you will be a mid-pack runner 'till the day you quit, unless you work VERY hard at it- at a level of dedication that I suspect you are not quite aware of yet.
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