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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 07:07 AM
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jeepracer,
confirm:
the video shows basically the whole track,,,the race is a roughly 1/8th mile straight away,,,180* hair pin and then a short straight(????) to the finish line....
that does look like a blast!!!
atleast 60%+ driver "talent" for who wins....

which motor debate: LOL,,,rules "interpetation" comes into play....

defining what "is" oem stock can be fun....
(underated) 306HP 289 motor 65' Shelby GT350 (with just dual points ign) was sold thru Ford dealers and passed SCCA as a D class "production" motor because more than 3000 were built ...
not cheap to build,,,but there have been many write ups on a 2V "stock" 350HP 289 panamerica 1600 miles racer...

chevy "COBO" was also doing the same during that time period and I'll bet there are hot "Duntov" 283 combo's qualified as "production" for road racing and drags....

jeepracer,,,
to hit the ET numbers in D class with only 283/289 cubes will require a EXTREMELY light car and chassis as in a dune buggy tube chassis or a sprint car....

"what" are you planning to drive???
and what is the minumum weight allowed in that D class???
(or vehicle lbs per cube ratio allowed,,, however it reads)

the open/no cubes rule means you plan the car first then pick the motor cubes and HP to match...

my $.02:
if you are new to racing,,,start out in a lower class,,,,it is extremely hard to get a major car performance advantage starting out with less,,,,(as in short oval track 4 banger mini stock) so that does make it a "drivers" race to learn competitive driving and learn all needed for a higher/quicker class car build...
EX:
V8 D modified class only has a 1.5 second "window" for ET to determine win or lose...
H class has a 3.8 second ET "window" to operate in...
ya gotta learn to crawl first,,,then walk,,,then run with the big dogs in the $$$$ modified classes..

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Last edited by red65mustang; 03-08-2010 at 08:57 AM.
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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
What stock Windsor head is going to make this a winner??. OP says he has to use a s t o c k head.
Stock w heads are not that great. If they allow him to use Cleveland heads, then the small chamber, small valve Australian 302 Cleveland heads would be the way I would go. This is what I said I would do, not him.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 09:17 AM
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from the two choices it looks like a 289 would be your best bet. I would build to the rules and then protest everything, not with the aim to win but with the aim to get a more reasonable rule book.
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
I would build to the rules and then protest everything, not with the aim to win but with the aim to get a more reasonable rule book.
Exactly- except I'd take the win, too.

But you can bet they'd start thinking of an enforceable set of rules, instead of the circlejerk they now have.

Unless this style racing pays out a BUNCH of money and has a professional sanction, there is NO WAY they could do much more than one teardown that night, let alone ten.

But the inspection could go quick- IF they stopped at the first infraction they found. Just pulling the intake would expose enough of the engine to catch all sorts of cheating...

But just like w/claimer rules- no one is willing to protest anyone else, for fear that THEY will be next, so they ALL cheat.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 03-08-2010, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
A 2-valve 4.6 SOHC mod-motor using a Edelbrock Victor Jr. carb intake and a MSD 6 Mod ignition controller will make well over 300 HP w/stock heads, cams and a 650 carb.

You couldn't spend $2500 on this deal if you tried. I'm thinking you could have 2 engines for this money- 1 built, the other a long block.

Only difference between it and a 283/289 is a penalty for the cams, as long as the 283/289 was going to use aftermarket 4- bbl. intakes. But it has a bit smaller CID than either, so you get a little of that back.

I also know this idea will not fly w/the masses. A Ford w/OHC, not known (except by the Mustang guys) as being anything but a taxi engine.

But I WILL say this- You are not- IMHO- going to slay ANYONE w/just another SBx engine! It is going to take some "outside the box" thinking like the above to get a competitive advantage.

Every knuckle dragger out there is a guru on the SBC/SBF already- and there are a few KD'ers that are damned sharp. With your small budget, if you run Chevy/Ford SB's, you will be a mid-pack runner 'till the day you quit, unless you work VERY hard at it- at a level of dedication that I suspect you are not quite aware of yet.
Coming from the lonely 2v crowd (NPI on top of it!) I really like this idea. The 2v has a pretty easy learning curve and it's a tough motor as long as you stay under 6k rpms. Although, it's definitely is not known for it's torque output.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 03-11-2010, 11:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72
What stock Windsor head is going to make this a winner??. OP says he has to use a s t o c k head.
Cleveland heads are stock heads, 2V heads have a 2.08" intake valve, ever seen a 2.08" intake valve in a stock SBC head??
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2010, 12:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bates_k
Cleveland heads are stock heads, 2V heads have a 2.08" intake valve, ever seen a 2.08" intake valve in a stock SBC head??
Yep, and even bigger - The current LS series of SBC's.

I know all about the Cleveland heads, and the stock 2v Intake valve diameter is actually 2.040", with a 1.656" exhaust.

Australian 2v would be good because of the chamber size, American 2v just sucks on a small engine.

Will the OP's rules allow this cross-breeding? Could be a winner. No real cheap way to build this though.

I am saying 289 with any stock Windsor wedge head is a loser to the 283.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2010, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bates_k
The only reason chevys cost less is most hotrod builders don't know his butt from a hole in the ground.



You've obviously never been broke, I've done rebuilds for less than $1200, and had them run for
years...

>>---> no offence, but this is most moronic post i have seen in a long time. (red 65, you were right on)

i think you don't KNOW YOUR BUTT FROM HOLE IN THE GROUND!!! i build corvette engines mainly now-355s and 383 strokers. i have worked on tons of 289, 302, 351 fords. i have a De Tomaso with a BOSS 351 engine.
the small block fords are inferior in every way to the small block chevies (the exception is the BOSS 302s and 351s) look in any cataloge- they always say "starting at $xxx, it is always for SBC parts.

the aussie heads mentioned above are the the best heads you can buy--> 2V ports and closed cumbustion chamber quinch heads, but they aren't cheap.
as for the OP, a small hi reving engine IS THE LAST THING YOU NEED for your intended useage.

you need to build for torque, not HP.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2010, 07:57 AM
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You can compensate for lack of bottom end torque with modifications from the flywheel on back. True or False?

Seems to me that all the rules he has to deal with are all leveled at the engine not the drivetrain.

Which ever engine you decide to use, the right converter and rear gears can make a big difference in performance.

So much emphasis is being put on the engine in this thread, the drivetrain has been completely ignored.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 03-15-2010, 08:14 PM
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Ok back to the 283. Are the Vortecs better than the 461x heads?
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 06:16 AM
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jeepracer,,,
you still have not posted any car details....

very often that dictates which motor has to be used to clear the steering...

based on the video the motor center of gravity has to be as absolutely low in the chassis as possible....

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-19-2010 at 07:20 AM.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 07:48 AM
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Crazy idea, but here it goes:

If small cubes and cheap are what you're after I'd look at a 305.....most junk yards practically give them away. Pull it apart, clean it up, do rings and bearings, an oil pump and that's it! Is it the best out there? NO, they have their limitations but the top end is where the power is at. If you need a compression bump, take the points hit and replace the pistons with something more suitable, but that would double the cost of your short block .

Get a set of vortec heads (or a good set of older factory heads if you can find them cheap), pick a cam, intake, carb, and headers that make the power where you want it and go racing! If you frag the bottom end get another (and another, and another!) Just keep moving your top end. You might lose a head now and then but the vortec bare castings aren't too expensive and most of the valve train parts will survive and go on the "new" engine.

This solution is low on bragging rights but you'd be surprised at how many old, low budget racing engines were nothing more than this. Besides, if you do win a few races, imagine how pissed off the big money guys will be at getting their but kicked by a junk yard 305!
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 03-16-2010, 06:56 PM
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the vehicle i will be using is a stock jeep yj that will have a roll cage, racing seats and harnesses and a fuel cell and relocated battery cell. i would like to put the chevy rears in it but i have the dana 30 cj rears in it with the dana 300 transfer case.


the 305 doesnt sound like a bad idea. thanks
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2010, 06:35 AM
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which tranny and what motor is in the yj now (4.0L inline six)????

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-19-2010 at 07:22 AM.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2010, 07:45 AM
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Peterson's 4 wheel and off road mag. has articles on jeep builds and mod's every month. Check it out.

www.4wheeloffroad.com Good stuff!
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