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Old 03-24-2006, 09:18 PM
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289 issues

Hello,
I am new to your forum and joined to post this for help.
This is primarily a street machine / daily capable 67 tang.
I did a search but, did not find the answer.
For now I will describe the issue and add what detail seems relevant.
Just ask, if I forgot something that is needed to diagnose.

Eng. info
289 1965 block, with C5AE heads. factory rem man from a galaxy, as per the code <has all the tell tail rem man traits> 40 over bore, 10 under rods and mains crank grind.
It had clevite bearings when disassembled, bab material worn as would normal expect with no gouging and the crank was surprisingly smooth.
The pistons were in decent shape no cracks, nice tight pin's no visible damage or wear to the assembly.

I added:
XE256 comp cams kit, comp cams roller tip rockers, push rods from them also as recommend, performer RPM intake, Holley 600 4160 style, petronix points eliminator, bosh platinums (single electrode).
Had the block dipped and line checked, had Chevy hardened valve seats and valves installed to run unleaded pump gas (just slightly over stock), removed the casting ridges from the ports but did not remove allot of material.
set a moly rings.
T5 trans from 98 cobra

The Issue:
She breaks up under normal light acceleration from the 1800 mark and seems to be worse after getting warm. At WOT she will intermittently leap and set you back. Meaning you can tell when its hitting all 8. Most times it has an odd exhaust note change and sputters up in RPM slowly.
It will cruse for hours at the 1800 mark but, above that gets worse the longer you cruse. I can down shift and start getting a bit of valve click form the lifters after a few miles at 3000 rpm. With no load She will pull from idle and run up to limit with out issues. It runs well at 1800rpm in fifth < about 65 - 70 mph> Has good idle


I tried:
re-adjusting the valves, checked the floats and actually did the trick kit rebuild on the Holley, removed and reinstalled the air filter <looking to see if a tad leaner helped as i have not afforded a K&N for it yet>. Pulls about 12 hg vacuum 650 rpm and reads in the good zone of the gage.
Replaced the plugs again, this for just in case. The plug electrodes were clean with a light buildup on the thread face. Replaced the cap and wires,
Tried various timing settings from stock 6deg to 15deg advanced. Pulled and recondition the distributor mechanicals. Checked the springs and still need springs for tunning of the weights properly. The installed set are in good condition but, I want to get the overall curve better for mid range.
Compression test was good, (I think), I haven't calculated exactly what this con-fig would produce. No leak down test as the tool was borrowed out.



All thoughts are appreciated...

MrBoo

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Last edited by MrBoo; 03-24-2006 at 10:12 PM.
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Old 03-24-2006, 09:44 PM
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It sounds like an ignition problem here. Take a spray bottle, and with the egine running, mist the coil, and the distributor. Look for arcs. then run a test light along everything that is wet, look for arcs. If you don't turn up anything, replace the coil, you may have an internal leak in there. That is my best guess.
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:15 PM
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havn't seen any fireworks in the night or, heard any arcing.

I will try the misting technique tommorow thx...

MrBoo
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Old 03-24-2006, 10:41 PM
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Does it act like it is running cold? Even when it is warm? I'd try going up a couple of sizes on your main jets. If it acts better go up 1 or 2 more. Don't go more than 4-5 sizes bigger. It seems like every vacuum secondary holley I put on something needs to be richened up. Check your coil with a voltmeter and do the calculations to see if it is compatable with the pertronix. (find those on the pertronix website or with your conversion instructions.) Hope this helps, mikey
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Old 03-25-2006, 01:48 AM
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What firing order is the cam, early 289/302 or 351W/late 5.0L HO/5.8L?

You said you replaced pushrods, how did you determine length?

Last edited by KULTULZ; 03-25-2006 at 01:51 AM. Reason: I'm A Moron
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Old 03-25-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
What firing order is the cam, early 289/302 or 351W/late 5.0L HO/5.8L?

You said you replaced pushrods, how did you determine length?
Just a note on firing orders on those motors. If you use the ignition firing order of a 289/302 on a motor equipped with a 351w/late 5.0, It runs very poorly. It will shake alot. I know this because about a month ago someone brought me a '67 302 with a 351 cam. They never told me it had a 351 cam. They had no idea what was in it. I took it for granted that it had a 302 firing order. (always expect the unexpected, right?) I wired it up like a 302 and it started and ran. It did have a very weird exhaust note. It backfired thru the carb some but not alot. I did not even try to drive it. Moving the dist had minimal effect. First I thought the valves were too tight. Pulled a valve cover and found that they were ok. I found it by pulling plug wires off one at a time and when I realized that when I pulled 4 of the wires off it at once had no effect on the RPM. Wired it up like a 351 W and it was fine. That is my "dumb guy" confession of the day. mikey
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
What firing order is the cam, early 289/302 or 351W/late 5.0L HO/5.8L?

You said you replaced push-rods, how did you determine length?
I did research this one and it has the early firing order : i tried the 302 order and she won't start. I have found that the number one firing position (based on the cap) is 180 off. I tried to reset this and she would not fire at all. Typically these eng. have the number one plug toward the back of the eng.
I have two cap's one with number one in front one in rear. I tried setting it up by moving the distributor. But, at TDC the rotor is off by several degrees ether in front of or behind where it should be to fire the #1 plug.
So, I put it back where it started to the front if the eng. near the notch in the cap. > this may turn into my dumb confession of the day<

The cam had timing marks and is a factory setup. <only one way it can fit no adjustment > It has stock style timing gear from comp cams which came with the kit. All the marking were aligned as per the manual when installed. I know there is some high end tuning I could do using the deg. wheel instead of using the factory markings. I did verify that all the factory marks were indeed TDC. I have seen harmonics slip and throw off your timing marks.

When I reassembled this eng. I had a 1966 Mustang / Fairlane shop manual from Ford to follow. The assembly went well and it fired up nicely after two cranks.

The push rods were done by the machine shop. I had the guy replace the factory push in studs with screw in 3/8th studs. He shaved the rocker mount points for proper angle with the rods provided. They are a bit longer than stock .080 - .1 maybe (i did not measure them myself) when placed beside a stock rod they are about 3/8 longer. They were listed as the recommend rods by comp cams. http://www.compcams.com/catalog/146_147.html part 7831-16 for the XE256H what I ordered was the K31-234-3 kit.

Check your coil with a voltmeter: I will do the coil testing along with the misting of the wires.

As for the Holley I'll have to et back on the jets as I need to get a kit in house.

thx for all the assist, it is really appreciated, this one has been frustrating me for several weeks. I drive the car daily to work and that is 100 miles a day.
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:48 AM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBoo

I did research this one and it has the early firing order : i tried the 302 order and she won't start. I have found that the number one firing position (based on the cap) is 180 off. I tried to reset this and she would not fire at all. Typically these eng. have the number one plug toward the back of the eng.
To me...302 FIRING ORDER refers to pre-1984. 5.0L refers to 1984/ . Also view below site for cylinder positions on block;

http://www.boxwrench.net/specs/ford_289_302-5.0.htm

No. 1 on the cap should be at the front of the cap.

Quote:
The push rods were done by the machine shop. I had the guy replace the factory push in studs with screw in 3/8th studs. He shaved the rocker mount points for proper angle with the rods provided. They are a bit longer than stock .080 - .1 maybe (i did not measure them myself) when placed beside a stock rod they are about 3/8 longer. They were listed as the recommend rods by comp cams.

http://www.compcams.com/catalog/146_147.html part 7831-16 for the XE256H what I ordered was the K31-234-3 kit.
Let me cipher awhile on this cam catalog.
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Old 03-25-2006, 10:53 AM
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You said you are driving the car 100 miles a day. What is your gas mileage like? I would think if your firing order is wrong or your valves are too tight you will be slurping up alot of gas. ( How did you adjust those valves?) If it starts and runs good enough to drive it that far, it can't be too far off. (also, if the valves were too tight it would get progressively worse with that kind of use) Don't buy a holley "kit" if you start doing jet changes. It won't have the stuff you need. Just go buy a set of the blue gaskets that holley makes. They are intended to be reused over and over if need be. Find out which jets are in the carb now. Go to your parts store and get jets that are 1 or 2 sizes bigger. swap them in and see what happens. I usually put a little vaseline or anti seize in the gasket and the O- rings on the fuel supply tube to make it easy the next time. If you are taking that carb apart for the first time you will see why the brown gaskets suck.
Hope this helps, mikey
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Last edited by powerrodsmike; 03-25-2006 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 03-25-2006, 02:24 PM
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Were the new screw-in studs dead stop (non-adjustable) or adjustable? What type rocker arms used? The cataloging for the push rod kits has footnote numbers at them. Can you pull them up from the catalog? Have you ascertained proper drivetrain geometry? I am trying to figure out why COMP wants longer pushrods...
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Old 03-26-2006, 08:49 AM
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I attached a photo that may show the valve train enough to answer those query's about it. I adjust the by placing a dial indicator to a stable position, finding 0 lash, then tighten till it reads .050 on the dial. The contact point is the rear edge of the rocker. Using this test method the standard 3/4 turn produces between .055 & .065 on the dial.

Quote:
KULTULZ I am trying to figure out why COMP wants longer push-rods...
I think this relates to compatibility with 302 vs. the shorter 289. Note: the web site states both for those cam selections.

Quote:
Were the new screw-in studs dead stop (non-adjustable) or adjustable? What type rocker arms used?
The new studs have a dead stop to to the head (flared nut base). They are post style non-rail and fully adjustable rockers. The rockers are non-roller pivot point roller tip with rails.

Quote:
powerrodsmike What is your gas mileage like?::Just go buy a set of the blue gaskets
Mileage is poor, but, I never expected good mileage from the 289. I have noticed progressive worsening of missing over time.
The kit used had blue gaskets and it will be the third take down of the unit. I found from others and articles the same suggestion about Vaseline and the sticky gasket problem. So, on first take down did just as you have suggested. I try to do my home work before taking stuff appart and just swapping out parts. I will take your advice on the jets and not get there kit. Only getting a couple sizes up to start.

Quote:
KULTULZ To me...302 FIRING ORDER refers to pre-1984. 5.0L refers to 1984/
I have found the early 302/289 order also to be as you stated. 1,5,4....
But, the date they started the 302 1,3,7,8... has been stated to 1974, 1984, 1968 meaning allot of different opinions were found in my searches.
For what its worth I believe you are correct. The car is currently setup that way. I have no idea why I wound up with a cap showing it to the rear.
Note: these guys do show the #1 at the cap in the back. http://modeltech.tripod.com/wiring101.htm

The coil tested to 762 ohm's from 12v input to the secondary,
I did not get a chance to mist it yet, (have to rig a spay bottle that does this well. The one I tryed sputters to much.)

I am wondering based on all the thoughts:
that the valves are to tight, ( see my first note on how I set them)
that the petronix is failing at higher RPM. (i have a set of points to install to answer this one)
That the coil is an issue under load, (they are cheap so it will be replaced)
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Last edited by MrBoo; 03-26-2006 at 08:57 AM.
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Old 03-26-2006, 09:35 AM
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I'm wondering if those valves aren't too tight now also since you say performance is deterioating. I hope you are not burning some valves. I usually set hydraulics 1/2 turn after I feel some drag on the pushrod. With the lifter on the base circle of the cam. ( I wonder if the cam you got has a smaller base circle, hence the need for longer pushrods). You said that you have an adjustable rocker arm. Are you using poly-locks or locknuts? or the positive stop on your stud? Make sure of your valve adjustment and ignition before you start changing jets.
I built a 302 a while back in a 72 pickup with a little more cam than you used (272* adv. duration) and I get about 15- 18 mpg, depending on how I drive it.
The position of the wires on the cap has no effect on how it runs as long as the firing order is correct and it is timed correctly.
Change the coil if it is suspect . If you are using the stock coil wire (resistor wire),you should get the correct coil output to run the pertronix. The coil "negative" terminal should read about 9 volts to the ignition.
It sounds like you are heading down the right road. mikey
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Old 03-26-2006, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Note: these guys do show the #1 at the cap in the back. http://modeltech.tripod.com/wiring101.htm


I'm Wrong! #1 is as shown...
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Old 03-26-2006, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
#1 is as shown...
I have seen good argument to both from various web sites.
When I get a chance I'll poke around some more.
I don't think your wrong or right yet as I did not consult a true Ford book from that era on this one.

Quote:
powerrodsmike The position of the wires on the cap has no effect on how it runs as long as the firing order is correct and it is timed correctly.
I agree, as long as you know where #1 is and set the order from there it should run. The only issue is when your dealer <if you ever> or the next owner gets the car. Nether are likely for this ride.

I did rotate the crank as I was adjusting the valves, using the rotor to point at the cylinder being adjusted. This seems something I need to revisit. I have the standard style nuts that came with the comp cams rockers. In keeping the old nuts I can try using them as jam nuts until a nice locking set can be purchased.

Wires pasted the misting...

I recall it mentioned that we are close, yup yup I think it is very close and the problem should soon be fixed. A bit more time and some double checking the work done will show the problem.

It will likely be next weekend before I can make any more major tests or progress.

Folks all the thoughts are much appreciated. Having a forum to bounce things around really is grand. CUDOS

MrBoo
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Old 03-27-2006, 02:56 AM
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I consulted a MOTORCRAFT TUNE-UP SPECIFICATION BOOK (1985) and it shows No. 1 to the rear. A mistake on my part, I should have known better.

I think when all of the smoke clears it is going to be valve/ignition timing. You will need to set the valve lash per shop manual procedure (adjust each cylinder from balancer position) and then ascertain proper valvetrain geometry.

Let us know what you find.
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