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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 03:49 AM
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Like I said before, I doubt that our roads were as good... though I will concede our cities were smaller and there was a bit less stop and start. On the other hand, my dad's cars were used in door to door work, constantly stopping and starting, driving half a block and stopping again.

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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:23 AM
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Ray Bell, off the topic a bit, are there ford six cylinders with heads that have cross flow design in Australia? I heard there were, I have a 65 ford van with a 240 six cylinder and i was curious
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:28 AM
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Is that a truck type engine (like the 300) or an engine based on the Falcon 6?

Our crossflow and overhead cam engines are all based on the Falcon 6, we never made the truck type engine here.
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 08:31 AM
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Diesel is your only chioce,you might also consider getting rid of that whole rear end and finding a good 2 speed rear end in junkyard, if you run standard trans it will give twice the number of gear choices.
When I was 19 n needed lots of parts for building hot rods,I got a job in a junkyard, this was circa 1966,what people are saying about it being all over for cars at 100,miles is right!
I think it had a lot to do with the quality of the oil,no filters in a lot of early cars,and also very little to no maintenance.
But man let me tell you,it was a treasure chest,lots of rear end wrecks on newer stuff with motors and trans still intact!!
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 09:00 AM
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I thought the two speed rear ends were really low in gear, like the first range was 8:1 or something the 2nd range was like 5:13, I thought about doing that when I first got this van.

Ray Bell, the original motor was a falcon motor, I converted it to the 240, they only put the 240 truck six in those little vans for one year or two as far as I know, I had to get a cross member for the motor mounts from a 1967 van and a bellhousing. I never did drive it after I rebuilt the 240 except on one 2000 mile trip to florida and back one time. The radiator wouldn't cool it properly it ran a little hot. That van has a lot of parts that can fit on a falcon.
I remember wishing I had a cross flow head in that thing after I saw one on the ineternet but I didnt know if it was just the falcons, or the truck motors too. Seems like they would be good for a few more horsepower and gas mileage.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 09:12 AM
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@ Topwrench: "I just ran my 355 long rod motor down the road, put it through all five gears on Al. sr.91. last speed I remember looking at on the speedo was 65 and that was in 2nd.gear,Had plenty of power well below 5500, but Ill tell you what man , when it hit 5501 it lit the tires up,you know someone said on another post long rods were ok above 5500."

Sounds like one bad son of a gun ride you have there man.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 10:54 AM
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Dirty Biker, to answer all of your questions just run out and buy the October 2010 issue of Car Craft magazine

first article: stock reman 454 truck motor = 446 HP/4900rpm & 542 ftlbs/3600rpm, never made less than 400 ftlbs. Torque and HP graphs cross at 5200rpm, ran out of carburetor with a 750cfm Holley. This is with stock, cast iron, open chamber, small valve, peanut port, smog heads and 2.25" dyno headers. They expect a jump in torque with 1.75" street headers, an 800cfm M4ME Q-Jet would be a fine choice for a truck. All of that for $2650.00 out-right, no double shipping with a core.

You have one at home and can duplicate the build for a lot less money and NO shipping charges.

Look at the dyno graph, it is the definition of efficient: great power, fine fuel economy, a pleasure to drive, will last for years, great ROI, can't ask for more.

article 2, same results from a 396 = their useable motor + $4250 parts + machine work + labor

article3, same results from an Olds 455 = their useable motor + $7000 parts and machine work + labor. a Rocket 88 might be cool BUT $5000.00 in the bank is a lot cooler.
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 08-22-2010, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duntov
So far no gas engine can match a diesel for efficiency. Early cars, which were heavy, started out with small bore/long stroke, and the engineers have been working back to that formula for a decade. I think the 283/302 type ratio was part marketing and grew out of the perception that it made more power because the big bore small stroke was a drag car philosophy since the 1940s. Gas was 17 cents a gallon when I was in high school, higher octane too.

There are guys my age and older still today, who will tell you with a strait face that a 327 is faster than a 350 because of the shorter stroke. According to that the 383 would be a real dog. And I'm sure that perception was perpetuated by the change in the way HP was rated just after the end of the 327. And of course Ralph Nader came along about the same time.

Lots of reasons why long stroke is cheaper to run; can't deny the math. I build small blocks, but drive Isuzu diesel daily because it saves me enough in fuel cost to buy a set of aluminum heads two or three times a year. There is plainly a lot more units of energy in a gallon of #2 oil than in a gallon of gasoline, that's mostly why, but research will yield that most diesels are also under square.
There is probably an engineer somewhere who if you told him you were going to spin up a 302 to pull a load more efficiently////he would just walk over to your desk and stick his pointer in your eye.


I was bored Duntov
This whole deal is right,Im old timer too,when I was younger I listened to all that b.s. too n promised myself not to ever do that kind a talking n keep up with the times, n I believe Ihave.
As far as your comment on engineering,if an enginner were to design this van for his application, you can bet he would drop a Diesel in there.
The 6.2 has a lot of shortcomings and I hope he doesnt choose that(this is in comparison with a 6bt) Dirty Biker, if you could get a hold of a cummins with an in line Bosch pump youll be better off than with a distributor style pump,you can really get into that pump and some serious hotrodding, and as long as you keep it off full q.i. motor will last a long time,also as you know 6 cyl. is always easier to work on...
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 10:47 AM
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I really wanted to rebuild my 454 at first, for several monthes I thought about it. I would use spacer bearings and a 3.25 inch stroke 348 "W" motor crankshaft and with common 6.535 inch rods the stack would let me maybe use the same stock 454 pistons. That would be the about the same rod stroke ratio and bore stroke ratio as the 302 sbc but have 380 cubic inches @ .060 over on the bores! Like a 302 on serious steroids right? That would be awesome. I abandoned the idea tho due to no luck finding a spacer bearing source but apparently they did used to make them, at least according to wiki. "The cylinder block, although more substantial in all respects, used the same cylinder bore centers of 4.84" with a larger 2.75" main bearing dimension, increased from the 2.50" of the older engine (in fact, the shorter stroke 348 and 409 crankshafts could be installed with the use of "spacer bearings" without modifying the crankshaft)."

Last edited by Dirty Biker; 08-23-2010 at 11:04 AM.
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:02 AM
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You really need to give up on this whole rod ratio theory of yours. I don't know how you went about creating it but you're chasing after one of the most trivial aspects of an engine. It does make a difference, but longer is NOT always better and the effects are slight.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 11:27 AM
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I don't need to give up on it anymore than you need to give up on loving turbo chargers and short rod long stroke motors. That is just what I like to do, think about this stuff and try to understand. How else except for trying will I ever really know for sure? The theoretical 380 cube motor I was just posting about could be easy to build, and be very durable. Except for the 6.535 inch rods, it would be made from all stock parts saving lots of money. Also since the 348 cranks are steel, it could easily rev past 8000 rpm without tearing something up unlike a 400 small block with all high end parts and lots of money spent and only 20 cubes bigger. I bet it would be better than a 400 small block in this van anyways. Why I bet if that 380 bigblock was in a normal car, it would beat any built up 400 small block easily in a race because of all the revs! I would even bet money on it. We would have to build it and dyno it and then race each other to find out for sure, but that would be plenty a good enough reason to make me want to build one!
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:00 PM
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So you're going to compare two completely different engines and gather info on rod length? Do you even know what changing the rod length does?
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolover
So you're going to compare two completely different engines and gather info on rod length? Do you even know what changing the rod length does?

bothe are still v8 type motors, the main difference is the deck height. I am comparing the rod ratio not the rod length when comparing one v8 to another. The taller deck height lets me have a better rod ratio by having longer rods for the same stroke. The rod ratio has to do with the geometry in the motor. My 380 cubic inches to your 400 in this case.
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 12:21 PM
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Again, your oversight is amazing. (Probably why I don't get along with hippies). Those engines share nothing in common except a distributor.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 08-23-2010, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbolover
Again, your oversight is amazing. (Probably why I don't get along with hippies). Those engines share nothing in common except a distributor.
Just because the parts wont interchange does not mean they have nothing in common. They are fundamentally the same. How can you say they share nothing in common? The big block is simply a bigger and heavier version of the small block complete with larger bearings and larger piston pins and journals and bigger bore centers. They have more similarities than differences to me. same firing order even. But as to why you don't get along with hippies I would have speculate but it seems likely that they might think you come across as just another jerk who thinks he knows it all and just says alot of negative things all the time. Hippies like to help each other by uplifting and inspiring.... but some people can't be inspired because they think they have it all figured out already. No need to try to do anything new. Some people just don't want to be happy at all it seems, which is fine by me because its a free country but the thing is, alot of unhappy people go out of there way to try to make other people feel bad too. Misery loves company they say. Hippies stay away from people that have closed minds and say hurtful things and attempt to destroy others self esteem because those kinds of people don't want to be happy and have a good time.

But you and I both know your not that kinda person, your just a big ole teddy bear really, ain't ya?

Last edited by Dirty Biker; 08-23-2010 at 01:30 PM.
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