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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2010, 05:21 AM
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That`s come a long way from my day, they always made school into prison and those of us that weren`t very enthused as students got reminded on a regular basis we were dirt bag losers, since then I`ve done my best to live there words down, wouldn`t want to disappoint`em.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2010, 05:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleVision
That`s come a long way from my day, they always made school into prison and those of us that weren`t very enthused as students got reminded on a regular basis we were dirt bag losers, since then I`ve done my best to live there words down, wouldn`t want to disappoint`em.
that was grade school for me back in the 80's.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleVision
305 Vortec heads are swirl ports and don`t flow no where near L31 vortecs do.
Vortec 305 heads are _much_ better than the late 80's/early 90's swirl ports... there's a thread about them here from about a week ago... it's almost no work to get >250 cfm out of the intake ports...
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2010, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
They don't teach that in school anymore. 3+3=7. Good job Johnny, you're trying. It is the deliberate and unceasing dumbing down of America.

I was talking with the manager of a food store the other day. He said he has to coddle the little beggars to death to get anything out of them. Said he has to constantly praise them because that's what they are used to from school.
Don't get me started... I was at my niece's graduation a couple of weeks ago and was surprised to learn that they weren't allowed to have a valedictorian speech because "it put undue pressure and made the rest of the students feel inferior" (was told that it was mandated by the "no child left behind thing).

A buddy of mine was at his daughter's end of the year thing, and they called out and had all the honor roll students stand up durring it, THEN they did it again JUST for the black students... ***??? I don't know how that just doesn't offend everyone.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback
A buddy of mine was at his daughter's end of the year thing, and they called out and had all the honor roll students stand up durring it, THEN they did it again JUST for the black students... ***??? I don't know how that just doesn't offend everyone.
Hahaha... but seriously. Didn't you get that memo? The board of education tries to keep non-caucasians dumb because they buy lots strange things. I personally like the grape-menthol flavored pencils

As a diesel mechanic, there is no room for sentiment. "3+3=7? how the ******* did you get that johnny? Dig the sand out of your vagina, your costing me money!"

Last edited by cusz28; 06-25-2010 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 06-25-2010, 07:52 PM
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As far as the vortec 305 heads, getting 250 cfm from them is good for a max of about 415-425hp. not too shabby. I have an Lt1 in my 83 z28 with the cast iron "grand-daddy" vortec heads and I got close to 410 at the crank with minimal headwork.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2010, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleVision
305 Vortec heads are swirl ports and don`t flow no where near L31 vortecs do.
Whoooaaaa!!!! Back the truck up a minute.....

L30 heads are NOT true "swirl ports" in the sense of the TBI heads, the have a very mild ramp in the intake throat but nowhere what the TBI heads have and while it's true they don't flow "as well" as the L31's they flow better than most conventional factory 350 heads. True they lack the L31's heart shaped chambers as well but they aren't exactly "door stop" material.

I have a 305 Vortec core I bought cheap for the roller cam hardware. I was going to scrap the shortblock and heads as it had some crank issues but after looking at the heads I decided to do some research as they looked a lot better than what I had been reading and hearing. I found flow numbers at one of the F-Body sites posted by someone I know from other boards and he is well respected on those boards so I'm pretty confident in what he posted. He has his own flow bench and did a stock set with 1.84 intake valves. The numbers were pretty decent considering that everyone says they're junk. For a mild street build or for a truck TQ build they actually appear to be a pretty decent head. The numbers he posted blow the 416's right out of the water and if you put any stock in DD2000 they'll outperform the '441 and '462 heads on a mild 355 and that's with the stock 1.84 intakes. They also gave nearly identical results as 882's. Am I claiming they're an all out performance head? No. But if a guy comes across a good set cheap and just wants a decent pair of basic heads for street motor or towing motor I think they are a good option. I'm going to snag a couple more sets just to have around.

I just got my current set I had done for the 305 I'm putting in my C10 back from the machine shop . Most of you have heard this before but it's a stock '87 LG4 shortblock with the Ramjet roller cam, 1-1/2" 4 tube headers, 500 Performer carb and HEI backed up with an NV3500 5 speed and 3.73's in a '66 LWB '66 C10. Porgress is slow due to my new job but it WILL run this summer. Based on previous experience with 305's and DD2000 I anticipate a little over 300 HP @ 5,000 RPM and 362 FtLbs @ 3,500 RPM with 345 @ 2000.

A lot of people seem to be losing sight of the fact that we're not all building all out drag cars. Sometimes just a "little more" is plenty.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2010, 11:22 PM
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"This engine will be going in a 1985 Pontiac trans am t top car T-5 borg warner 5 speed"

This sounds like your first project car and I'm sure everyone here wishes you well with it. I own the exact same car and can tell you to start off with a G-body (Monte Carlo or Grand Prix), they are very much easier and cheaper all around.

Please read the link to CarCraft's project car, they threw $12,000 in parts PLUS labor to install at it for ZERO results.

CarCraft's project Firebird

Major problems, deal breakers:
1) T-tops severely weaken this car and you will never stop the rattles, squeaks, wind whistles or water leaks EVER
2) mom's car motor, kiddy car transmission and a rear end from a Monza, the torque arm to the trans eliminates other options. The drive train really won't take too much more torque or HP
3) there is no place for a high performance exhaust system, the factory had to torture the floor pan to fit in single exhaust

Sorry but an F-body is just a mom's car with a face lift, not a good choice to hotrod, a G-body eliminates all of the inherent problems it has.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2010, 11:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman
Sorry but an F-body is just a mom's car with a face lift, not a good choice to hotrod, a G-body eliminates all of the inherent problems it has.
The first and second generation F-bods were good cars. But by '82, well, there were better options. Shame, too. If not for the diff, the rest can be fairly easily overcome. And their aero is great for what it is. That weak diff is the deal killer for me.

AFA the G-body (my DD is an '80 Malibu, BTW) is their rear ends are pieces of crap, too. Basically the same as the third gen F-bodies minus the torque tube. Still a heavy hit to plug in a beefy rear end. Otherwise can be worked with.

I've heard about the Ford Explorer(?) diffs for G-cars, just not as happy w/that as I would be if the damn G-cars just came w/the corporate 8.5" like it should have. Turbo GN and Hursts, etc. aside.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2010, 11:18 PM
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REALLY??? Deal breakers???

My current project car is my 3rd, 3rd gen firebird (2 TransAms, one Formula 350), I currently own 2, as well as a 4th gen and a bunch of other stuff

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldBodyman
Major problems, deal breakers:
1) T-tops severely weaken this car and you will never stop the rattles, squeaks, wind whistles or water leaks EVER
I've never had a leaking t-top in mine... (my 4th gen leaks some under certine conditions). My '83 TA was built for road racing and had one of the stiffest chassis I've tinkered with after some custom subframe connectors and some other chassis stiffeners... much stiffer than the g-bodies that i've messed with, and there is really nothing you can do to a g-body beyond the factory braces unless you want to put a full cage in it with bars through the firewall...

Quote:
2) mom's car motor, kiddy car transmission and a rear end from a Monza, the torque arm to the trans eliminates other options. The drive train really won't take too much more torque or HP
They were available with the same transmissions as the better g-bodies (and if you're going to throw the GN in my face then I'll throw the TTA back, which has the same TH200-4r and the torque arm _was not_ attached to the transmission).

Yea, the T5 is weak sauce, but the TH700r4 could be built up pretty strong and the 4th gen T56 is a bolt in in the place of the T5, they've run 9's and plenty of serious parts are available.

If you want to go with anything else it will pretty much fit (i'm putting a 4L80e, basically a TH400 with a built in OD in my '87 TA), and there are loads of options for transmission crossmember, aftermarket crossemember and tranny tunnel mounted front TA pivots.

The 7.5/7-5/8 rear was also junk, and it was also the one used in most G-bodies as well as almost everything RWD that GM made during that time. There's _loads_ of aftermarket axle setups available and they're common enough that you can even get them used fairly easily. Again, my 87 is getting a Moser 9" with a nodular center section, 35spline detroit locker...

Quote:
3) there is no place for a high performance exhaust system, the factory had to torture the floor pan to fit in single exhaust
this is the closest to being true, but long tube headers, dual 3" exhausts or single 4" all fit under it. It's a little more difficult than "traditional" cars that people 'rod, but no more difficult than anything else that sits that low. It's actually easier to go dual 3" than a 2nd gen f-body or similar vintage corvette (both are tighter around the rear suspension)

The fact is that they are a little bit harder to do some things on than traditional muscle cars, but that is entirely because they were built to be more aerodynamic (and still are than most cars that came before or after them) and to handle well. There aren't many cars out there that can be effectively raced at both the drag strip and the road course, and still be usable on the street with a stock style suspension like a 3rd gen f-body, and I can't name any that will do as well in both applications with only some stronger stock style parts.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2010, 06:59 PM
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I too have a third gen f body (83 z28), and i fricken love it. for the camaro and firebirds, that generation handles the best. in 1984, the z28 camaro was voted best handling car in america. take that g body. they might not launch like a mustang, but camaro's were never really built for drag. that was the mustangs territory. f bodies had the handling. the motors sucked, yeah... but so did almost every car back in the day. g body included. Personally, I could care less if someone touts their "g body's better than my camaro" (or whatever car they have). It's a car, a piece of equipment. you can buy any car you want and make it however you want it. my "mustang" may have 1000hp and can pull quarter mile wheelies, but my buddies "mini cooper" will kick my car's but on any road course. with a tenth the power, and tires smaller than my steering wheel.

Point being, every car was DESIGNED for a specific application. the g-body was a rear wheel drive, bruizer that could launch hard and had a stout motor to back it up. the camaro... corner carver with alot of muscle. no brakes though... you're on your own. Didn't the g-body have the same engine, transmission, and brakes too? along with the same basic body structure? you know, you can put a camaro front end on a g-body... it basically bolts on.

sorry, got a little carried away
-end rant and rave-
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2010, 07:44 PM
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About 9 posts in, G-body frame, frame stiffening.

Another similar job going together.

The point is- there's a FRAME to work with here. Add an 8-point, and there's no issue w/stiffness.

Add adjustable boxed rear control arms and tubular front control arms, coilovers, etc. and it'll go around corners w/the best of them from that era. ADDCO, Hotchkis , etc. all make G-car as well as F-car suspension upgrades.

The cheesy rear ends are a wash.

Aero- that's another story. lol
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2010, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Didn't the g-body have the same engine, transmission, and brakes too? along with the same basic body structure? you know, you can put a camaro front end on a g-body... it basically bolts on.
The F-body is a unitized body w/separate subframe. The G-body has a frame, but uses the body as a stressed member, also.

But unfortunately, there's very little that interchanges between the two and that also depends on if you're talking about the 3rd. Gen or 2nd. Gen F-body. The 3rd. Gen front end is a subframe w/struts, the G-body uses unequal length A-arms and a conventional coil spring/shock set-up.

The 3rd. Gen shares the rear end guts, front sway bar(?), possibly there are some brake interchange between some F- and G-cars. Wheels interchange.

The V8 engines from the 3rd. Gen swap into the G-cars, the V6 doesn't- at least not a bolt-in. The OD trannys will exchange, but the 3rd. Gen didn't come w/a TH350/350C like some G-cars.

I'm sure there are more than these few items I've listed.

Last edited by cobalt327; 06-28-2010 at 08:48 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 06-28-2010, 09:52 PM
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The frame used in a g-body was a wet noodle and the body didn't add enough stiffness to the front of the frame to make it really useful for anything besides straight line.

Stick a proper 8point in an F-body (tied into the chassis correctly at the proper locations), and it will be stiffer than the g-body (everything forward of the doors on the g-body will still flap around, the best bet to do something about that without getting into a ton of work is to try to find a set of factory under engine bay braces used on some of the better optioned grand prixs, good luck in finding some), build a jungle gym in either and at that point it doesn't matter what you started with, its up to who's cage work is better.

Stock G-body rear suspensions have to much slop in them by design to really work well in a straight line, f-bodies work fine if you know what you're doing. Replace the bushings/control arms in either and keep the stock geometry and they both become quite competent in a straight line.

The only real advantage a G-body starts with is that it's layout is somewhat easier to work on and more traditional for people used to 60's and 70's tech.

cobalt... the '82 V8 cars got a TH350

Last edited by Silverback; 06-28-2010 at 09:59 PM.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-29-2010, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverback
The frame used in a g-body was a wet noodle and the body didn't add enough stiffness to the front of the frame to make it really useful for anything besides straight line.

Stick a proper 8point in an F-body (tied into the chassis correctly at the proper locations), and it will be stiffer than the g-body (everything forward of the doors on the g-body will still flap around, the best bet to do something about that without getting into a ton of work is to try to find a set of factory under engine bay braces used on some of the better optioned grand prixs, good luck in finding some), build a jungle gym in either and at that point it doesn't matter what you started with, its up to who's cage work is better.

Stock G-body rear suspensions have to much slop in them by design to really work well in a straight line, f-bodies work fine if you know what you're doing. Replace the bushings/control arms in either and keep the stock geometry and they both become quite competent in a straight line.

The only real advantage a G-body starts with is that it's layout is somewhat easier to work on and more traditional for people used to 60's and 70's tech.

cobalt... the '82 V8 cars got a TH350
Had a TH350 for a year- got it, thanks.

Fact is, they're BOTH **** ty unless a lot of mods are made. And neither would be my first choice for a street prowler if a tight budget was involved. Glad you love yours, that's what matters anyway.
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