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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2012, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by starnest
Post the casting codes, date codes, and stamping code (if it's still there) for your block and crank. I'll look them up in my books when I get home tonight (just for fun).
The block casting number is 3892657
The block ID stamp is VO4I4KL
Could the date code be D77, or is that something else?

The Crank casting is 4577

You guys have got me thinking.
If my heads need rebuilding anyway, where would I look for some newer or aftermarket heads, such as the aluminum ones you mentioned or some later model GM's?

Also, if my crank needs grinding anyway, where do I look for a 350 crank and can I get one with the small main journals to fit my block?

If my block needs boring anyway and a 350 crank needs turned down to fit the small journals, then why stay with the original block and just find a complete 350.

Or if everything needs replaced or reworked anyway, what engines should I be looking for as a complete replacement? I'm intrigued with the comments that I could possibly get a 300hp 400ftlb engine that gets 20mpg.

So many ideas to consider, but I am grateful to all of you for your comments. Please continue to offer up your ideas to me.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2012, 09:54 PM
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That's a small journal 4" bore block. The site I like for casting numbers is HERE. Easiest to use Ctrl+F to find numbers you know, using the last three works well (except for SBC heads like c/n 462- there are several).

Suffix numbers can be fiound HERE, there are other sites as well.
KL= '67 327 Impala 275 hp; RPO L-30; TH400 tranny w/4bbl carb and a hydraulic cam.

The "D77" IS the date code. April 7, year ending in 7 = 1967 in this case.

I'd build it as a 327 if the block and crank are good, put Vortec L31 (page under construction) 5.7L heads on it w/a cam having around 0.450" lift so the heads don't need any extra machine work, headers, intake, dual exhaust, recurved HEI, and a Q-jet or 600 Holley/Edelbrock carb. Should make 350 hp at the crank w/o problem, good idle vacuum (so the power brakes work good), even the mileage shouldn't be too bad.

Otherwise, I'd look for a '96-up 5.7L Vortec long block. It has a hydraulic roller cam, the good heads, a windage tray and will make about 20 more hp/tq than the 27 will using the same parts.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2012, 11:26 PM
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What's wrong with the original engine in that beautiful Camaro Rollie?

I would be very inclined to restore what was originally in there rather than throw another engine in there. It will be worth more in the long run and there is nothing wrong with a numbers correct restoration.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-05-2012, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
What's wrong with the original engine in that beautiful Camaro Rollie?

I would be very inclined to restore what was originally in there rather than throw another engine in there. It will be worth more in the long run and there is nothing wrong with a numbers correct restoration.
I don't have the original 327 210hp that came with it. Interestly it has a good running 283 in the 58-62 era and has sellable value to someone else building a vehicle of that year. It really has no value to me personally.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollie715
Or if everything needs replaced or reworked anyway, what engines should I be looking for as a complete replacement? I'm intrigued with the comments that I could possibly get a 300hp 400ftlb engine that gets 20mpg.
That was my point. And on a carbed enigne that is that old you can bet almost everything will need to be reworked.

As for engine upgrade options, you can go with a TPI 350, a Vortec 350, or a LT1. All of them can be bought for around $500. All of them use roller cams (big plus).

The TPI engine has a great induction system for low RPM torque and mileage but pretty pitiful heads.

The Vortec engine has some pretty good heads, but crappy induction system.

The LT1 has a pretty good induction system (some say better than the TPI but only for peak hp, the TPI is the best for low rpm power), has pretty good heads (almost as good as the vortecs are stock and VERY easy to modify into some really good street heads), and it has reverse cooling. One potential drawback is the optispark system but if you use a MS system for your computer you can easily get rid of optispark.

You will need a fuel pump that can handle the required fuel pressure for the EFI as well as a ECU, you can use a stock ECU but considering the hassle I would just use an MS1 system.

Any of these engines can be tuned to give you more power and torque than you want AND better mileage. I would plan on adding headers and a mild cam upgrade to any of them though if you really want them to shine.

If you can find someone with an early 90's Camaro with an LT1 that can give you an idea of the performance you can expect in stock form, with a cam and headers it will be even better yet. It's also a car that is so easy to drive you could put a 16 year old girl behind the wheel.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:36 AM
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I appreciate all you guys hanging in here and discussing this with me. It's seems like I am somewhat obsessed with this subject right now.

Here's a little math:
The Camaro is my daily driver, I love driving it everywhere.
Looking at the mileage records for the last 6 months,
I average 735 miles per month.
At $4/gallon gasoline prices,
13mpg costs $226 per month
18mpg costs $163 per month
If these numbers are realistic, that's a savings of $63 each month for gas alone.

If this was an occasional driver that I took out to the a show once a month, I would go for the old school power and the fuel mileage would not be a factor.

So I am very motivated with the idea of an efficient motor that has good power AND economy. If a new EFI motor or even an upgraded carb motor can be put together that meets these requirements, I am interested.

As for a transmission, I prefer an automatic, and an upgrade from the current powerglide would be in order. I'm thinking if I'm shopping for a new motor, I should be looking for a matching transmission to go with it, or even a donor car that I can strip out all the necessary parts to go with it.

I know this is changing the subject a little, but do you have some advice on a transmission to go with the motor?

This is my daily driver, and a little modern upgrade in the drivetrain department, may be just what I want.

Thanks for all you input
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 08:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
..........The Vortec engine has some pretty good heads, but crappy induction system..........
Any of these engines can be tuned to give you more power and torque than you want AND better mileage. I would plan on adding headers and a mild cam upgrade to any of them though if you really want them to shine.....
I'm having a hard time letting go of my accumulated parts and original plan.
What about this scenario?
327 block
350 crank turned down to fit the small main journals
New 350 rods and pistons
350 Vortec heads
Old school intake manifold with Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb
Upgraded cam
Headers

The big difference is what will the Vortec heads do for me? More power and mileage? And what economy can I expect staying with a carb instead of the upgrade to fuel injection?

Just thinking.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:04 AM
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Cobalt - Thanks for giving Rollie the 911 on his block, I got sidetracked last night watching Barrett-Jackson.

Rollie, before you jump to the conclusion that you should use a different engine, evaluate what you have. Do you know the condition of the engine when it was removed (milage, running, knocking, smoking, missing, etc)? Can you get the engine on a hoist or stand and run a compression check?

Next, tear the engine down and give it a good visual inspection, look for cracks, scuffing in the cylinders, marks or discoloration on the crank journals, dings or burn marks on the pistons, is the batting on the bearings intact, any metal or coolant in the oil or filter, burned, bent, broken valves? These things would indicate problems. If you find obvious problems then depending on the nature of the problem, you will have to decide to repair or replace. Post pics and we can help you evaluate.

Next step is to take the parts to a machine shop and have them checked. Typically any engine should be checked, cylinders honed, rods resized, crank turned (if needed). A high performance build would include other work, but for a street engine you just need to get everything to service tolerances (specified in the service manual, which I have for '67 so I can give you the numbers as you need them).

You will also need to check and service the heads, usually grind the seats, check/replace the guides, new stem seals, etc. If there are problems with some of the springs or valves they would need replacement (some high lift cams would require new springs).

Keep in mind that in most cases, these things should be done for any used engine (IMHO). (I would do this with any used engine before I bothered to put it in a car - some might not, but I'm too old and slow to do the work first then find out I had a problem).

While I don't disagree that better performance and in some cases better economy can be had with TPI, Vortec, and/or LT1 engines or heads. I do think that for a driven street car, the difference is minimal when you are driving normally. The difference could be huge if you are driving at WOT most of the time.

Also, since you don't have a numbers matching car you are not going to derail value if you update few things. But IMHO, there is more value and interest for your car if it is "era correct". That would include things like using fuelie heads on a 327 Camaro engine, because a lot of guys did that back in the day.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 09:52 AM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rollie715
I'm having a hard time letting go of my accumulated parts and original plan.
What about this scenario?
327 block
350 crank turned down to fit the small main journals
New 350 rods and pistons
350 Vortec heads
Old school intake manifold with Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb
Upgraded cam
Headers

The big difference is what will the Vortec heads do for me? More power and mileage? And what economy can I expect staying with a carb instead of the upgrade to fuel injection?

Just thinking.
If you want to use a 350 crank there is NO reason to use the 327 block. Use a 350 block that has ROLLER CAM provisions, and 4 bolt mains if you want.

An old school manifold will not work with Vortec heads

Going this route you end up with a carbed 350 with a hydraulic flat tappet cam and a weak crank that will cost you about 2 grand.

Picking up a $500 LT1, TPI, or Vortec engine and doing a cam and headers swap will cost you maybe $1500 if you get some nice stuff. It will have more power, MUCH better fuel economy, and be more reliable...

I know you like your 327 block because you already have it but using it will cost you more in the long run- which is why its important to flush out your options before you even buy one part.

If you're looking to do an engine AND trans swap a 5.3L LS engine and an automatic trans can be swapped in for less than the cost of just rebuilding your 327...
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:00 PM
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My head is still spinning from all this input.

I'm starting to look locally for a 350 Vortec setup. If I find a good deal I may be pursuaded to go that way.

However, this is where I'm leaning right now:
(assuming the block and crank are in good shape)

327 block (if bored needed $200)
327 crank (if grind needed $140)
New Pistons ($160)
New GM Vortec Heads ($650)
Vortec compatible carbed intake manifold ($140)
600 cfm carb (used)
New cam ($120)
Timing Set, lifters and gaskets ($150)

Total so far $1560
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 02:31 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Also will need a ring and bearing kit, balancing, installing pistons to rods, distributor, water pump, oil pump, pushrods, and misc odds and ends (bolts plugs etc) so tack on another $700 for all of that. Plus you'll spend more on your intake and maybe cam assuming you don't want the cheapest crap out there.

A well built budget sbc is about 2000-3000. You can easily spend more though.
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Old 04-06-2012, 04:01 PM
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Rollie,

I looked at the photo. You're just sitting back laughing, I believe?

If you're being serious, rebuild the 327-if feasible. It will do exactly what you want and will bolt right in and out. You won't have to screw with brackets and you're probably numbers matching, if you even care. You have exactly what you're looking for already.

If you're going to trash that outdated, low rpm small journal piece of crap engine for a modern motor, send it to me! I'll put it in the garage to keep my sj327 from being lonely until my crappy 454 with horribly outdated 781 heads tags him back into my '65ss Impala. You think machine work is expensive? Price rear tires.

P.S. I still think you're messing with us.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rineholio
Rollie,

I looked at the photo. You're just sitting back laughing, I believe?

P.S. I still think you're messing with us.
Actually I have been very open and honest with all my comments.
I appreciate your insight, as it may help me get back on the ground where I want to be.
The only thing misleading about the picture is it was taken in California in San Diago by the previous owner who I purchased it from on Ebay.
My initial perspective was to go all old school, but I am easily influenced by other's comments and am influenced somewhat by fuel costs as this is my daily driver and gas is getting expensive.

I've only had this car for 6 months now, so the newness may wear off soon and I will start leaving it parked more and only take it out on special occasions. If that happens, then the issue of economy will be less and I would lean more towards the old school approach as I started. This whole internet commenting back and forth is messing with my mind.
I do appreciate all the comments everyone is making, but do realize many ideas come from different perspectives.

Nice to hear from someone in Washington.
If I do decide to go with the Vortec heads, I will have a nice set of Camel Humps to sell or trade for a good deal.

Last edited by rollie715; 04-06-2012 at 05:04 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:04 PM
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It seems to me that the 327 with a modern transmission would give you the most bang for the buck.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2012, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grandpa01
It seems to me that the 327 with a modern transmission would give you the most bang for the buck.
I've been thinking of the transmission also. The current 2-speed powerglide is a little loose. I was thinking of a 700-r4 or a 200-4r as they are both 4 speeds and have the lower 1st gear which will help with off the line launch and 4th gear overdrive which may help with gas mileage at cruising speed. The 200-r4 has a bad reputation, but I hear the new rebuilds are good and they fit in better without as much mounting and driveshaft mods.
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