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327 275hp rebuild

12K views 43 replies 9 participants last post by  ap72 
#1 · (Edited)
I've been tinkering around with car projects for many years, but am planning my first complete engine rebuild and am looking for some advice to see if I'm on the right track. This engine will be going into my 67 Camaro.

I just picked up a complete 327 275hp engine that came out of a 67 Caprice. It is mostly stock, but the previous owner upgraded the pistons with something like a 11.2 compression. It has the 462 camel hump heads. I'm thinking to make it more streetable and run regular pump gas, I need to change out the pistons to something with a smaller compression ratio.

When it is done, I would like to have a good balance between impressive street performance and good gas mileage. (Yes I know those are competing factors)

Here's my plan so far: Let me know what you think.

Strip down the motor, take it to the machine shop and have the block and crank checked and possibly rebored or ground as needed. I'm guessing the bore will end up being about .030 oversize. Also have the shop rebuild the heads using stock parts.

Speed Pro H660CP30 Hypereutectic Pistons w/ Moly Rings Kit.
Flat top with valve reliefs
This should give me about a 9.15 compression ratio using my 64cc heads.
What do you think about Moly or Cast Iron Rings?
$200 on Ebay from KMJ Performance.

Using the Cam selector software from Comp Cam, I found a mild cam which they suggest makes good power, while providing good mileage.
It is the Comp Cam 12-205-2 Grind 252H High Energy model. I'm not sure what all the specs mean, but they are easily found by searching this model.
With my existing parts, their software says I should get about:
276 HP @ 4500rpm
376 ftlb @ 3000rpm
This is similar to the factory specs for hp and about 20 ftlb more of torque.

I've got a factory intake manifold model 3872783, which I think came from a mid 60's 300hp 327.

Carb is an Edelbrock 1406 600cfm, which is supposed to provide good performance as well as good mileage.

Exhaust will likely stay factory cast iron manifolds, but I'm open to other GM manifolds available or maybe even consider some small tube headers in the future.

I'm thinking of adding an HEI distributor, but would like any suggestions you have.

When I am done, it will all be painted up to look factory stock for my 67 Camaro, using mostly factory parts.

Feel free to offer me any advice that will help within my basic vision, but mostly to look over my shoulder and let me know if I'm on the right track or need to do some tweaking.

Thanks
 
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#3 ·
ap72 said:
any reason you want to do an old 327 instead of a newer, cheaper, more reliable, more powerful, and more efficient 350?
With all those positive adjectives describing the 350, I'm wondering that myself.

I guess mostly for fun. The 67 Camaro is a nostalgic family project and the idea of putting in an era correct engine seems like the right thing to do. Also I already have most of the components and am thinking the experience of putting together a piece of history would be rewarding. Your comments are indeed thought provoking. Part of me wants to continue on the path I started, and see just what kind of performance and economy I can get out of it. That said, I'm still hoping for some detailed tweaking ideas on what I've already listed.
 
#4 ·
We "solved" that delemma for a local with HIS '67 Camaro. He wanted just what was described. A little more power than the 327, better fuel mileage and still LOOK "correct". Well, he dynoed 276 RWHP (about 320 FWHP) and gets 17 MPG (or so he SAYS. I have no reason to doubt him).

We used mostly the same "stuff" you list on the outside, including the intake. What we did "different" was make a 355... Some '67s had large journals, some small. Which is yours? If "large", a 350 or 383 crank is a "drop in" deal, using 350 or 383 pistons. We've also ground the mains down to small journal and used a 350 crank (not advisable with the longer stroke 383 crank). As long as you keep revs under 6,000 or so, the smaller mains won't be a liability. No nitrous, either, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're after.

A dished piston to get compression under 9.5:1 and a Comp XE265H makes for good low-end power and snappy response. All "done" by about 5,600. He LOVES his engine. It does EXACTLY what he wanted it to.

FWIW

Jim
 
#5 ·
rollie715 said:
With all those positive adjectives describing the 350, I'm wondering that myself.

I guess mostly for fun. The 67 Camaro is a nostalgic family project and the idea of putting in an era correct engine seems like the right thing to do. Also I already have most of the components and am thinking the experience of putting together a piece of history would be rewarding. Your comments are indeed thought provoking. Part of me wants to continue on the path I started, and see just what kind of performance and economy I can get out of it. That said, I'm still hoping for some detailed tweaking ideas on what I've already listed.
I don't see using 40 year old technology as being more fun when to most people the current technology looks almost identical... You're not comparing an old flathead Ford vs a coyote engine you're comparing one sbc against another sbc.

A used LT1 engine will cost less than just having your heads rebuilt and in stock form will give you more power, MUCH better mileage, and better durability. Yes it'll be fuel injected, but stepping up 30 years in technology isn't a bad thing...


The ONLY reason I would worry about numbers is if you have some REALLY REALLY rare car and want to keep it original.
 
#6 ·
Nothing wrong with putting an LT1 in any car, that's what hotrodders do.

But, with respect I think your choice to be "era correct" is a good choice in the case of '67 Camaro. As long as it looks correct, it will have more value than if you put the newer LT1 in it.

Upgrading the 327 to a 350 can be a good idea, especially if your block has the large journal crank. That change is affordable and from the outside only you will know it has been changed.

While the 462 heads are dated, they are remembered fondly by those of us who were around before the vortec engines. Keeping them for your camaro will work just fine, and they will look correct.

As for pistons, I would work towards 10 to 1, use a little longer duration cam (like the XE265 P-Body recommended) and you can still run pump gas with just a bit of lope in your idle. That cam should work fine in the lighter car, more so with a manual trans and a bit taller (numerically higher) gear.

Post the casting codes, date codes, and stamping code (if it's still there) for your block and crank. I'll look them up in my books when I get home tonight (just for fun).

Post some pics of your Camaro.
 
#7 ·
starnest said:
But, with respect I think your choice to be "era correct" is a good choice in the case of '67 Camaro. As long as it looks correct, it will have more value than if you put the newer LT1 in it.
Sentimental value maybe but not fiscal value. It's a plain jane 67 chevy camaro, nothing wrong with that but "numbers matching" is worth very little on something that common.
 
#8 ·
ap72 said:
Sentimental value maybe but not fiscal value. It's a plain jane 67 chevy camaro, nothing wrong with that but "numbers matching" is worth very little on something that common.
First, '67 Camaro's are not that common; yes there are plenty of them around, but certainly not enough for everyone that would want one.

Second, collector car value is built on a foundation of Sentimental value. If we didn't love these cars we wouldn't spend a dime on them. Thus number's matching, era correct wouldn't mean anything, only the scrap value of the metal would determine value. Because as transportation the old cars are too outdated, inefficient, unsafe, etc.

It is way too easy to surmise that these factors don't count if they are not personally important to you, but the smart money will recognize that they do count in the collector car world.

Now with recent trends in "resto-mods", there is good value in properly prepared collectable cars with updates; but this value is only recognized in a few cases and almost always relys on high quality work. The truth is in most of these cases, there is very little money made because the cost of components and labor for high quality are so expensive.

Back to the case at hand, even a good experienced builder would be hard pressed to make the 67 Camaro with the LT1 sell for significantly more than a correct looking 327/350 version of the car (all other factors - brakes, trans, suspension, etc being the same). IMHO :thumbup:
 
#9 ·
starnest said:
in the collector car world.
A plain 67 camaro isnt even a blip on the radar in the collector car world. As far as updating, I have seen MANY cars sell for more when they have JUST an upgrade to EFI, an LT1 goes way beyond that.

The OP can do what he wishes and if he has personal sentiment towards the 327 then that's a good option for him, but it is NOT the better financial decision. Again, there's NOTHING wrong with picking personal sentiment over a dollar value, if anything I support not just chasing the dollar, BUT there is NO advantage the 327 would offer other than a possible personal sentiment.

Personal sentiment is a LARGE part of why things are built the way they are in the custom auto world though and it is a very valid reason.

Bottom line the car should be built to satisfy the OP, but the OP should know going into it that there are other options that are more appealing to other people and those options should at least be considered.

On that point a LS swap would be about the same cost as would building a 400ci sbc or a big block swap- all of them are valid reasons and if you buy a running but used engine they are cheaper than building one yourself, and can be more powerful, more efficent, lighter, more reliable, etc.

Hell swap in a Jaguar V12 if you feel like it.
 
#10 ·
ap72 and starnest,

I appreciate the feedback I have received from both of you. While it is somewhat competive between the two viewpoints, it allows me to ponder just where I want to go between the two. I have often questioned what I would do, if I find the 327 block needs both a bore and the crank ground, as well as the heads rebuilt. I realize I could go out and purchase a good running 350, bolt on my intake, exhaust, and a new cam and have a more efficient and powerful engine for less money. As for the sentimental reasons, part of my perspective, is I'm building a car very similar to a 67 I had 32 years ago. I'm now 55 years old, and part of my "mid life crisis" is to recapture some of the good old days I had when I was younger. You are right, it is not completely rational or financial, but to balance it all out, it would also be good if it was. With a set of headers, my design should put out about 300hp and 400ftlbs, and I'm still hoping for gas mileage in the mid teens.

Here's a photo of the current car I am building:
 
#11 ·
rollie715 said:
ap72 and starnest,

I appreciate the feedback I have received from both of you. While it is somewhat competive between the two viewpoints, it allows me to ponder just where I want to go between the two. I have often questioned what I would do, if I find the 327 block needs both a bore and the crank ground, as well as the heads rebuilt. I realize I could go out and purchase a good running 350, bolt on my intake, exhaust, and a new cam and have a more efficient and powerful engine for less money. As for the sentimental reasons, part of my perspective, is I'm building a car very similar to a 67 I had 32 years ago. I'm now 55 years old, and part of my "mid life crisis" is to recapture some of the good old days I had when I was younger. You are right, it is not completely rational or financial, but to balance it all out, it would also be good if it was. With a set of headers, my design should put out about 300hp and 400ftlbs, and I'm still hoping for gas mileage in the mid teens.

Here's a photo of the current car I am building:

You can easily hit your power goals with a 327, and it seems you have a lot of sentiment over that engine.

I suggest you consider other heads though. Even the aluminum Chinese heads if you can't afford better. By the time you put new guides, springs, valves, valve job, etc in those heads you'll have $500 or more in them. If you still want to go with the old iron (again for sentiment) be sure to get a good valve job and open those ports up, they are TINY in stock form and taking out 20cc's in the right places would get you a lot more power and torque. Also, if the seats are good enough stay with 1.94/1.5 valves, until you get over 450hp or so the smaller valves are actually better.
 
#12 ·
ap72 said:
I have seen MANY cars sell for more when they have JUST an upgrade to EFI
To some extent that is true, but in most cases they sell for more becaue of the quality of workmanship. The same is true for restored cars. Professionally restored is worth more than a shadetree restoration on the same car. The point to consider is cost versus return on investment. You can spend a lot more putting 90's tech into a '60s car than you can recover in resale, even if it sells for more it cost more. In Rollie's case that is even more true, because he already has the 327 in hand. While he could sell it, by your estimation it has little value, he ends up losing money to switch to the LT1.

Rollie, I apologize for hijacking your thread, I did put a few ideas for your project in an earlier post. Good luck with your Camaro. BTW I saw the pic in your journal, it looks great.
 
#13 ·
starnest said:
he already has the 327 in hand.
No, he has remnants of a 327 in hand, which to rebuild properly is going to cost him at least $1500. A used LT1 is like $400, even if you decide to run MS instead of the stock ecu ($400) and have to buy a different fuel pump ($100) and throw in a few other little goodies like a nice air filter or some chrome (say $400) he's still ahead financially if he just lets that 327 block rot in the back yard.

Not to mention he'll get about 5 or more mpg better and it is a LOT easier to drive.

I've done a lot of junk yard engine installations for people and the primary reason why is that it just makes more sense than rebuilding when you can get an engine with less than 100k miles on it for $400 or less.


With all that said it seems a 327 would satisfy his reach for days gone by much better and as such I say do what makes ya happy!
 
#14 ·
An LT1 that needs nothing mechanically for $400? Maybe. Maybe you get it home and take it down for fresh gaskets, etc. and find the short block needs the works, and one of the heads is cracked.

The idea of stuffing the 27 block w/a longer arm and pistons to match the CR and the stroke is a sound approach IMHO.

In that car, reusing the fuelies would look right, Vortecs will run better, your choice.

Using styling cues from that era on the engine (finned aluminum v-covers, a front-mounted oil fill tube, things like that) will offset any loss of "the look" from using different heads to some extent- but fuelies will be the best for popping the hood at the Steak & Shake.

If the intake has the U-shaped heat riser channel, be sure you use the right type of stainless steel clad gasket between the intake and carb.

Nice looking car, BTW. Good luck.
 
#15 ·
cobalt327 said:
An LT1 that needs nothing mechanically for $400? Maybe. Maybe you get it home and take it down for fresh gaskets, etc. and find the short block needs the works, and one of the heads is cracked.

The idea of stuffing the 27 block w/a longer arm and pistons to match the CR and the stroke is a sound approach IMHO.

In that car, reusing the fuelies would look right, Vortecs will run better, your choice.

Using styling cues from that era on the engine (finned aluminum v-covers, a front-mounted oil fill tube, things like that) will offset any loss of "the look" from using different heads to some extent- but fuelies will be the best for popping the hood at the Steak & Shake.

If the intake has the U-shaped heat riser channel, be sure you use the right type of stainless steel clad gasket between the intake and carb.

Nice looking car, BTW. Good luck.
$400 is more than the local salvage yards charge, including warrenty. As far as looks, a little orange paint goes a long way for 99% of the people out there. And finned valve covers and such will really be what draws the eye, not the casting symbol on the front of the heads.
 
#16 ·
starnest said:
Post the casting codes, date codes, and stamping code (if it's still there) for your block and crank. I'll look them up in my books when I get home tonight (just for fun).
The block casting number is 3892657
The block ID stamp is VO4I4KL
Could the date code be D77, or is that something else?

The Crank casting is 4577

You guys have got me thinking.
If my heads need rebuilding anyway, where would I look for some newer or aftermarket heads, such as the aluminum ones you mentioned or some later model GM's?

Also, if my crank needs grinding anyway, where do I look for a 350 crank and can I get one with the small main journals to fit my block?

If my block needs boring anyway and a 350 crank needs turned down to fit the small journals, then why stay with the original block and just find a complete 350.

Or if everything needs replaced or reworked anyway, what engines should I be looking for as a complete replacement? I'm intrigued with the comments that I could possibly get a 300hp 400ftlb engine that gets 20mpg.

So many ideas to consider, but I am grateful to all of you for your comments. Please continue to offer up your ideas to me.
 
#17 ·
That's a small journal 4" bore block. The site I like for casting numbers is HERE. Easiest to use Ctrl+F to find numbers you know, using the last three works well (except for SBC heads like c/n 462- there are several).

Suffix numbers can be fiound HERE, there are other sites as well.
KL= '67 327 Impala 275 hp; RPO L-30; TH400 tranny w/4bbl carb and a hydraulic cam.

The "D77" IS the date code. April 7, year ending in 7 = 1967 in this case.

I'd build it as a 327 if the block and crank are good, put Vortec L31 (page under construction) 5.7L heads on it w/a cam having around 0.450" lift so the heads don't need any extra machine work, headers, intake, dual exhaust, recurved HEI, and a Q-jet or 600 Holley/Edelbrock carb. Should make 350 hp at the crank w/o problem, good idle vacuum (so the power brakes work good), even the mileage shouldn't be too bad.

Otherwise, I'd look for a '96-up 5.7L Vortec long block. It has a hydraulic roller cam, the good heads, a windage tray and will make about 20 more hp/tq than the 27 will using the same parts.
 
#18 ·
What's wrong with the original engine in that beautiful Camaro Rollie?

I would be very inclined to restore what was originally in there rather than throw another engine in there. It will be worth more in the long run and there is nothing wrong with a numbers correct restoration.
 
#19 ·
4 Jaw Chuck said:
What's wrong with the original engine in that beautiful Camaro Rollie?

I would be very inclined to restore what was originally in there rather than throw another engine in there. It will be worth more in the long run and there is nothing wrong with a numbers correct restoration.
I don't have the original 327 210hp that came with it. Interestly it has a good running 283 in the 58-62 era and has sellable value to someone else building a vehicle of that year. It really has no value to me personally.
 
#20 ·
rollie715 said:
Or if everything needs replaced or reworked anyway, what engines should I be looking for as a complete replacement? I'm intrigued with the comments that I could possibly get a 300hp 400ftlb engine that gets 20mpg.
That was my point. And on a carbed enigne that is that old you can bet almost everything will need to be reworked.

As for engine upgrade options, you can go with a TPI 350, a Vortec 350, or a LT1. All of them can be bought for around $500. All of them use roller cams (big plus).

The TPI engine has a great induction system for low RPM torque and mileage but pretty pitiful heads.

The Vortec engine has some pretty good heads, but crappy induction system.

The LT1 has a pretty good induction system (some say better than the TPI but only for peak hp, the TPI is the best for low rpm power), has pretty good heads (almost as good as the vortecs are stock and VERY easy to modify into some really good street heads), and it has reverse cooling. One potential drawback is the optispark system but if you use a MS system for your computer you can easily get rid of optispark.

You will need a fuel pump that can handle the required fuel pressure for the EFI as well as a ECU, you can use a stock ECU but considering the hassle I would just use an MS1 system.

Any of these engines can be tuned to give you more power and torque than you want AND better mileage. I would plan on adding headers and a mild cam upgrade to any of them though if you really want them to shine.

If you can find someone with an early 90's Camaro with an LT1 that can give you an idea of the performance you can expect in stock form, with a cam and headers it will be even better yet. It's also a car that is so easy to drive you could put a 16 year old girl behind the wheel.
 
#21 ·
I appreciate all you guys hanging in here and discussing this with me. It's seems like I am somewhat obsessed with this subject right now.

Here's a little math:
The Camaro is my daily driver, I love driving it everywhere.
Looking at the mileage records for the last 6 months,
I average 735 miles per month.
At $4/gallon gasoline prices,
13mpg costs $226 per month
18mpg costs $163 per month
If these numbers are realistic, that's a savings of $63 each month for gas alone.

If this was an occasional driver that I took out to the a show once a month, I would go for the old school power and the fuel mileage would not be a factor.

So I am very motivated with the idea of an efficient motor that has good power AND economy. If a new EFI motor or even an upgraded carb motor can be put together that meets these requirements, I am interested.

As for a transmission, I prefer an automatic, and an upgrade from the current powerglide would be in order. I'm thinking if I'm shopping for a new motor, I should be looking for a matching transmission to go with it, or even a donor car that I can strip out all the necessary parts to go with it.

I know this is changing the subject a little, but do you have some advice on a transmission to go with the motor?

This is my daily driver, and a little modern upgrade in the drivetrain department, may be just what I want.

Thanks for all you input
 
#22 ·
ap72 said:
..........The Vortec engine has some pretty good heads, but crappy induction system..........
Any of these engines can be tuned to give you more power and torque than you want AND better mileage. I would plan on adding headers and a mild cam upgrade to any of them though if you really want them to shine.....
I'm having a hard time letting go of my accumulated parts and original plan.
What about this scenario?
327 block
350 crank turned down to fit the small main journals
New 350 rods and pistons
350 Vortec heads
Old school intake manifold with Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb
Upgraded cam
Headers

The big difference is what will the Vortec heads do for me? More power and mileage? And what economy can I expect staying with a carb instead of the upgrade to fuel injection?

Just thinking.
 
#23 ·
Cobalt - Thanks for giving Rollie the 911 on his block, I got sidetracked last night watching Barrett-Jackson.

Rollie, before you jump to the conclusion that you should use a different engine, evaluate what you have. Do you know the condition of the engine when it was removed (milage, running, knocking, smoking, missing, etc)? Can you get the engine on a hoist or stand and run a compression check?

Next, tear the engine down and give it a good visual inspection, look for cracks, scuffing in the cylinders, marks or discoloration on the crank journals, dings or burn marks on the pistons, is the batting on the bearings intact, any metal or coolant in the oil or filter, burned, bent, broken valves? These things would indicate problems. If you find obvious problems then depending on the nature of the problem, you will have to decide to repair or replace. Post pics and we can help you evaluate.

Next step is to take the parts to a machine shop and have them checked. Typically any engine should be checked, cylinders honed, rods resized, crank turned (if needed). A high performance build would include other work, but for a street engine you just need to get everything to service tolerances (specified in the service manual, which I have for '67 so I can give you the numbers as you need them).

You will also need to check and service the heads, usually grind the seats, check/replace the guides, new stem seals, etc. If there are problems with some of the springs or valves they would need replacement (some high lift cams would require new springs).

Keep in mind that in most cases, these things should be done for any used engine (IMHO). (I would do this with any used engine before I bothered to put it in a car - some might not, but I'm too old and slow to do the work first then find out I had a problem).

While I don't disagree that better performance and in some cases better economy can be had with TPI, Vortec, and/or LT1 engines or heads. I do think that for a driven street car, the difference is minimal when you are driving normally. The difference could be huge if you are driving at WOT most of the time.

Also, since you don't have a numbers matching car you are not going to derail value if you update few things. But IMHO, there is more value and interest for your car if it is "era correct". That would include things like using fuelie heads on a 327 Camaro engine, because a lot of guys did that back in the day.
 
#24 ·
rollie715 said:
I'm having a hard time letting go of my accumulated parts and original plan.
What about this scenario?
327 block
350 crank turned down to fit the small main journals
New 350 rods and pistons
350 Vortec heads
Old school intake manifold with Edelbrock 1406 600cfm carb
Upgraded cam
Headers

The big difference is what will the Vortec heads do for me? More power and mileage? And what economy can I expect staying with a carb instead of the upgrade to fuel injection?

Just thinking.
If you want to use a 350 crank there is NO reason to use the 327 block. Use a 350 block that has ROLLER CAM provisions, and 4 bolt mains if you want.

An old school manifold will not work with Vortec heads

Going this route you end up with a carbed 350 with a hydraulic flat tappet cam and a weak crank that will cost you about 2 grand.

Picking up a $500 LT1, TPI, or Vortec engine and doing a cam and headers swap will cost you maybe $1500 if you get some nice stuff. It will have more power, MUCH better fuel economy, and be more reliable...

I know you like your 327 block because you already have it but using it will cost you more in the long run- which is why its important to flush out your options before you even buy one part.

If you're looking to do an engine AND trans swap a 5.3L LS engine and an automatic trans can be swapped in for less than the cost of just rebuilding your 327...
 
#25 ·
My head is still spinning from all this input.

I'm starting to look locally for a 350 Vortec setup. If I find a good deal I may be pursuaded to go that way.

However, this is where I'm leaning right now:
(assuming the block and crank are in good shape)

327 block (if bored needed $200)
327 crank (if grind needed $140)
New Pistons ($160)
New GM Vortec Heads ($650)
Vortec compatible carbed intake manifold ($140)
600 cfm carb (used)
New cam ($120)
Timing Set, lifters and gaskets ($150)

Total so far $1560
 
#26 ·
Also will need a ring and bearing kit, balancing, installing pistons to rods, distributor, water pump, oil pump, pushrods, and misc odds and ends (bolts plugs etc) so tack on another $700 for all of that. Plus you'll spend more on your intake and maybe cam assuming you don't want the cheapest crap out there.

A well built budget sbc is about 2000-3000. You can easily spend more though.
 
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