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Old 01-16-2009, 03:19 PM
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327 build. what else would you do?

Im doing a 327 for my 65 shoebox. Heres what Ive got in the works;

The shortblock is done. Its 4 bm .30 over forged crank, stock rods lightened and balanced, cast pistons. Pretty basic.

By the way the idea is kind of a l-79 clone.

Id like some Vortec heads but alas they appear out of reach @ this point. Maybe later. For now Ive got some camelhump heads with 194/150 valves. They will get lots of porting attention and appear to have hardened seats. I figure they will support whatever Hp I can eek out of the little de-stroker in ported form without more exotic/expensive modifications. I also have some z-28 springs, I lost their specs but they definatley are a step up from stock.

The cam is a L-82 cam, nearly identical to the old 350 hp cam. 222 dur. .450 int 460 ex. @ 114*. Should be very streetable and easy on the valve train. Should also work well with a set of ported rams horn manifolds which is what Im leaning towards. May still go the cheapy headder route though. ??

The induction will be via a cold edlebrock performer (heat risers blocked) and a 600 cfm Holley 4010. I will do a bit of improvements on the carb to improve booster signal and flow.

Other perks are a gear driven timing set, hei distributor and roller rockers.

Most of what Ive mentioned Im pretty well decided on, but what would YOU do different or what ELSE would you do that can still be done @ this point?

Also Ive got an old book that places me @ 9.7 CR with 64cc heads, flat top pistons and stock gaskets. Does that sound about right? Should I maybe look for a bit more compression?

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Last edited by 65smallblock; 01-16-2009 at 03:24 PM.
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Old 01-16-2009, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65smallblock
Im doing a 327 for my 65 shoebox. Heres what Ive got in the works;

The shortblock is done. Its 4 bm .30 over forged crank, stock rods lightened and balanced, cast pistons. Pretty basic.

By the way the idea is kind of a l-79 clone.

Id like some Vortec heads but alas they appear out of reach @ this point. Maybe later. For now Ive got some camelhump heads with 194/150 valves. They will get lots of porting attention and appear to have hardened seats. I figure they will support whatever Hp I can eek out of the little de-stroker in ported form without more exotic/expensive modifications. I also have some z-28 springs, I lost their specs but they definatley are a step up from stock.

The cam is a L-82 cam, nearly identical to the old 350 hp cam. 222 dur. .450 int 460 ex. @ 114*. Should be very streetable and easy on the valve train. Should also work well with a set of ported rams horn manifolds which is what Im leaning towards. May still go the cheapy headder route though. ??

The induction will be via a cold edlebrock performer (heat risers blocked) and a 600 cfm Holley 4010. I will do a bit of improvements on the carb to improve booster signal and flow.

Other perks are a gear driven timing set, hei distributor and roller rockers.

Most of what Ive mentioned Im pretty well decided on, but what would YOU do different or what ELSE would you do that can still be done @ this point?

Also Ive got an old book that places me @ 9.7 CR with 64cc heads, flat top pistons and stock gaskets. Does that sound about right? Should I maybe look for a bit more compression?
First it is a 327 not a 350,
so generally speaking that equates about 3-4* difference in cam preference.
I'd back off the cam to about 218* single pattern on a tighter 109-110* LSA.
High ratio rocker arms for all the lift breathing you can get.

The shorter cam with tighter LSA will maintain some decent midrange and the lift and bigger valves give you top end.
This cam should put your power into 4400 torque and 6000 hp if you have the heads to support it. 4-500 lower with the smaller heads.
Nice lopey idle about the same as the other one, and be liveable with your chosen compression on pump gas. Keeping your midrange strong and having a snappy throttle response.

A plain Performer intake might be OK with the 218 cam. As would be a 600 carb.
The RPM intake seems to help around 5500 with some loss below 3500. An Air Gap might be a little much. Definitely no single plane allowed.

I'd look to the success stories, and try a 750 cfm carb later, preferably an Edelbrock Thunder Air Valve, or a Holley vacuum secondary, so that you will have some decent driveability.

Also I would keep my headers a maximum of 1 5/8 primary, preferrably a 1 1/2 primary if you like snappy mid range performance without giving up much of anything until above 5500.

Consider gas will get higher $, good gas harder to get, and we still want to drive and have fun.


“The vulcan neck pinch is not half as powerful as the vulcan groin kick, but it is more politically correct” ~ spock
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Old 01-17-2009, 06:42 AM
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Thanks for the input. I can see why you would choose a different cam. However the cam I have is nearly the same as the old 350 HP 327 cam (not a bad success story there), they were 221 dur. as opposed to 222 but a bit less lift (I think 430 ish ??). The nice thing about the wider lsa is a more gradual ramp which can be good for minimizing valve bounce @ rpms and easier cam break in. But I do see why a closer one would be better for torque and midrange. I think Ill have plenty bottom end though. Im doing a few other things to place some emphasis on low end torque.
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Old 01-17-2009, 09:19 AM
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I like what you are doing for a fun driver. The old stuff worked good and still does. The rams horn exhaust still do pretty good as well on the small 327 and the 2.5 Corvette rams horn is still available new from GM Performance. They are about $105 each and give a noticeable increase over the 2.0 (by noticeable, I mean you can tell there is a slight increase in performance). A cheaper option that is between the 2.0 and 2.5 is the truck rams horn which turns back about 30* before the flange. This some times gives you better clearance over the straight down version to go with the ever so slight increase in performance. Some times we forget all that went into the older additives that gave the same displacement factory motors more HP. Dual exhaust was one of those so the same exhaust manifold on single exhaust system, works better when the vehicle is converted to duals. Chevy actually went to the 2.5 dumps on the 300, 350 and 375 HP 327 Vettes and of course they all had duals. The HP gains were achieved with intake, carb, valve train geometry, head design and piston changes.

Trees

edit: I forgot to mention, you could special order the Vette motor and tranny in a passenger car in those days so they came Vette Rams Horn exhaust.
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:01 AM
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Well from your post, I take it this is a 68 or later 350 block and a large journal 327 crank (stock 327 blocks never came in a 4 bolt block, and early small journal cranks will not fit a 350 block without bearing spacers), I take it this engine is used for street driving in a faily heavy vehicle with occasional 1/4 mile blasts, I would recommend a cam in the 260 to 270 duration range, or if more performance is desired a solid lifter cam in these durations (if you can put up with the noise). They work very well with a mild 8:1 to 10:1 compression ratio engine in a heavy car with relatively small (327) engine with a auto transmission. First two mistakes hotrodders make are long duration cams and a way to large carburator. Just My opinion from having done it!. Good luck on your project.
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:13 PM
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"I like what you are doing for a fun driver. The old stuff worked good and still does."


Thanks, that is what it is all about for me really, kind of building a fun little time machine.


"The rams horn exhaust still do pretty good as well on the small 327 and the 2.5 Corvette rams horn is still available new from GM Performance. They are about $105 each and give a noticeable increase over the 2.0 (by noticeable, I mean you can tell there is a slight increase in performance). A cheaper option that is between the 2.0 and 2.5 is the truck rams horn which turns back about 30* before the flange. This some times gives you better clearance over the straight down version to go with the ever so slight increase in performance."


I read in another thread that the donut seal is the most restrictive part of those old manifolds and that using a flange gasket will go a long way to fixing that. Makes sense! Im thinking that and a bit of porting work would make a set of 2" ers work pretty well. Naturaly the 2.5" ers would be better though, if I can find a set. The GM parts option is food for thought as well. Probably better off with a quality set of headers for that cost though.



"Some times we forget all that went into the older additives that gave the same displacement factory motors more HP. Dual exhaust was one of those so the same exhaust manifold on single exhaust system, works better when the vehicle is converted to duals. Chevy actually went to the 2.5 dumps on the 300, 350 and 375 HP 327 Vettes and of course they all had duals."


I couldnt agree more. Ive had a few basicaly stock small blocks that demonstrated a real "seat of the pants" improvement by simply switching from single to dual exhaust. It makes a pretty effective system when its set up properly.
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Studebaker
Well from your post, I take it this is a 68 or later 350 block and a large journal 327 crank (stock 327 blocks never came in a 4 bolt block, and early small journal cranks will not fit a 350 block without bearing spacers), I take it this engine is used for street driving in a faily heavy vehicle with occasional 1/4 mile blasts, I would recommend a cam in the 260 to 270 duration range, or if more performance is desired a solid lifter cam in these durations (if you can put up with the noise). They work very well with a mild 8:1 to 10:1 compression ratio engine in a heavy car with relatively small (327) engine with a auto transmission. First two mistakes hotrodders make are long duration cams and a way to large carburator. Just My opinion from having done it!. Good luck on your project.

Actualy there were 4 BM 327's. I know a guy who has one about 5 miles from me. They are found in 68-69 HD trucks and Corvettes, which is probably where my crank came from, I dont think they made forged 307 cranks. Weve been over that in another thread. But yes, my block was from a 72 (I think, maybe 73) l-82.

Dont you think that 260-270 duration would be a bit much for a 327 in a street machine? Ive thought about the solid cam route and if I had better rods and pistons Id probably do it. But for the stock rods and pistons I have I think it would be scatter fodder.

Any references or opinions on the Compression ratio?? Anyone..?
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Old 01-18-2009, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65smallblock
Thanks for the input. I can see why you would choose a different cam. However the cam I have is nearly the same as the old 350 HP 327 cam (not a bad success story there), they were 221 dur. as opposed to 222 but a bit less lift (I think 430 ish ??). The nice thing about the wider lsa is a more gradual ramp which can be good for minimizing valve bounce @ rpms and easier cam break in. But I do see why a closer one would be better for torque and midrange. I think Ill have plenty bottom end though. Im doing a few other things to place some emphasis on low end torque.

LSA has absolutley NOTHING to do with the lobr profile, or valve bounce, or anything like that. Go with bout a 107-110 on a street driven 327. Of all of the durations mentioned, with stock ramhorns (which are crap compared to any cheapy header- even block huggers) a 218/222 duration with a 109 LSA would probably be best- installed 4 degrees advanced. Do yourself a favor and call Isky and explain to them what you have and what you want. They'll set you up right. IMO they are a lot better than comp or crane. Also, settle on hyd. or solid. At your low lift/duration levels hyd. seems the obvious choice, but its all up to you. And don't touch your carb. A box stock carb 600 is all you'll need to feed a mild 327.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:00 PM
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As I stated in my original post I am pretty much settled on what Ive got listed, cam included. Im more interested in what what others would do "in addition" to what Ive already got cooking. I do appreciate others opinions though, whatever they may be.

In reguards to LSA, wouldnt a wider LSA for a cam with the same lift and durration translate into a more gradual ramp as opposed to a steeper one for a tighter LSA? That was why I made the valve bounce/easier on the valve train reference.

The only thing I will do to the carb is file down the butterfly screws some and polish the venturis, little stuff like that to help out the flow just a bit. Nothing drastic. Other than that it will be all about tuning.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65smallblock
In reguards to LSA, wouldnt a wider LSA for a cam with the same lift and durration translate into a more gradual ramp as opposed to a steeper one for a tighter LSA? That was why I made the valve bounce/easier on the valve train reference.

The only thing I will do to the carb is file down the butterfly screws some and polish the venturis, little stuff like that to help out the flow just a bit. Nothing drastic. Other than that it will be all about tuning.
Once again, LSA has NOTHING to do with lobe profile. a cam with the same lobes on a 100 vs a 120 LSA will have the EXACT same amount of valve bounce, same ramps etc. I don't know who told you otherwise but they should be kicked in the teeth for misguiding you. the LSA DOES NOT, NEVER HAS, NOR WILL EVER affect the lobe profile (or ramp as you call it).

And filing the screws etc. isn't a bad idea and is a good way to kill a Sat on a work bench, but really won't make a difference on that mild of an engine.
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72
I don't know who told you otherwise but they should be kicked in the teeth for misguiding you. the LSA DOES NOT, NEVER HAS, NOR WILL EVER affect the lobe profile (or ramp as you call it).

.

Steady there trigger.. No need to alter anyones dental work. Your right, its long durations that cause steep .......dd..d..b.b.. lobes,..ramps whatever. Right?
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Old 01-18-2009, 01:56 PM
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You're leaving a lot of power on the table with your choices.
Use a rpm style hi rise dual plane manifold.
You can do a lot lot lot better on the cam. The L82 cam sucks. It is not the same as the old 327-350hp "151 cam"
A comp 268HE-10 or XE262H-10 or 265DEH will work a lot lot better.
Isky has lots of simular great cams too that work a lot lot better than that old dog cam.
The Corvette ram horns work the best with a high flow 2 into 1 style exhaust system with a merge style collector/Ypipe eg Flowmaster #Y250300. Simular to what the circle track guys do with their setups.
2.5" primary pipes 3" main exhaust pipe.

If you prefer the dual exhaust look at the back of the car you can split the tail pipes after the muffler. Or get a 1in/2 out style muffler like sold by Magnaflow to complete the exhaust system.

If your pistons in your 327 are below deck at TDC use a thin steel shim style head gasket. (felpro #1094)
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 65smallblock
Actualy there were 4 BM 327's. I know a guy who has one about 5 miles from me. They are found in 68-69 HD trucks and Corvettes, which is probably where my crank came from, I dont think they made forged 307 cranks. Weve been over that in another thread. But yes, my block was from a 72 (I think, maybe 73) l-82.

Dont you think that 260-270 duration would be a bit much for a 327 in a street machine? Ive thought about the solid cam route and if I had better rods and pistons Id probably do it. But for the stock rods and pistons I have I think it would be scatter fodder.

Any references or opinions on the Compression ratio?? Anyone..?
327 4 bolt mains never happened
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:33 PM
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Fbird,

Im sure I could have picked a better cam and I think scotfrenzels suggestion is probably right on the money. But I dont think the one I selected is all that bad (sucks) for a 327, and if your suggesting that the "151" cam is better than the l-82 cam I disagree. Their specs are very similar but the l-82 has more lift. .447/.447 vs .450/.460. same 114* LSA and only .001* difference durration. Yea, its an old grind. Yea, I could have done better, but its not a bad cam for what I want to do which is maintain decent performance throughout the entire operating range, especialy the lower end.

Ive looked @ different manifolds a bit. Are the new "RPM" manifolds really that much better than a basic performer? Dont they give up a little bottom end compared to a performer?

Ive considered steel shim gaskets too, but Im a little skeptical about their reliability and aint sure its worth an extra .1 on the compression. Ill tell you what I am considering though. Ive got a set of 416 heads and have looked @ your many threads about modifying them and Ive considered doing that as opposed to the 194 fuelies. With the flow #s you achieved with those heads I think they might be a good option. One other thing I considered about the 416 heads is that they get lots of flack for being "thin castings". But there is an upside to that, thinner casting means bigger water jackets, better cooling helps prevent detonation..

Sooo, im thinking that a set of 57-58cc heads should place me @ about 10.5:1 cr. If I added 194s and ported them enough to flow good that might be a nice marriage..

Still looking for more feedback re; compression ratio.. ??

Last edited by 65smallblock; 01-18-2009 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 01-18-2009, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by 32v
327 4 bolt mains never happened

Geeze, whatever.. Apparently Im just a liar and so are a bunch of other people. Believe, or in your case, deny what you will.
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