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Old 02-08-2006, 02:58 PM
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348 to a 409

In 1961, GM took a 348, bored it out to a 409, and gave birth to this legendary motor.

Can I do the same thing to a 348 now ???? Are all of the parts available ???
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Old 02-08-2006, 09:28 PM
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To find out if the pistons will fit, take your block to the machine-shop and ask them to sonic check it -if the walls are thick enough, then consider boring it. Removing that much iron would be interesting -61 cubic inches... seems like a lot...
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Old 02-08-2006, 10:41 PM
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More to it than boring the cylinders out.

The following is an excerpt from another forum ..."The early 348s "791" heads are lower performance heads with small valves as compared to the bigger valved 409 heads"...
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Old 02-09-2006, 09:35 AM
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348 4.125 x 3.25
409 4.312 x 3.50
427 4.312 x 3.65

Not so easy, the stroke is diff also, but since it is a hot rod job, if You care to, get a 396 or even a 454 Mk4 crank, turn the mains down to the W engine size and make a good stroke motor out of your 348 without the need to risk reboring high such an old and rare engine.

so:

4.125 X 3.76 = 402 or
4.125 X 4 = 427

Just an idea.
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Old 02-09-2006, 08:00 PM
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Not sure about the 348, but the '09 was good for .125 over.

4.312 + .125 X 4" (454 crank) = 495!

"W" stands for WOW in this case.
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Old 02-09-2006, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandre Garcia
348 4.125 x 3.25
409 4.312 x 3.50
427 4.312 x 3.65

Not so easy, the stroke is diff also, but since it is a hot rod job, if You care to, get a 396 or even a 454 Mk4 crank, turn the mains down to the W engine size and make a good stroke motor out of your 348 without the need to risk reboring high such an old and rare engine.

so:

4.125 X 3.76 = 402 or
4.125 X 4 = 427

Just an idea.
Interesting. Pistons would be the fly in the ointment. For a 4.125" standard bore or 4.155" 0.030" over, the pin would need to be moved up 0.375" from the 348 position to use the 454 4.00" crank. And remember, these pistons were wedge shaped on the crown 'cause that's where the combustion chamber was, in the piston. The heads were flat, no chamber.

A call to some of the manufacturers like Ross, JE and Venolia might accidentally find something on the shelf. Maybe someone else has tried this in the past.
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:23 AM
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Techinspector1,

I bet some money as someone has already tried some of these. The 396/427 crank is almost direct, it was done by that time, as for 454 I dunno. May not even has space into the block to the reciprocating assembly, has got to measure the distance between the cam and crank to be sure there is enough space for the rods to spin without hitting the crank as happens on 400 mouses. If I recall properly, there was a big competition between the 409, the Mopar 413 and the 406 Fords to justify some oddball tricks and some felows racing today in nostalgia classes, research there and some wierd results may show up.
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Old 02-10-2006, 04:37 AM
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There was an article a few years back in Hotrodder mag. about the 348/409/427. They used a 454 crank to stroke the 409. upwards of 600 hp. There is a diff. between the 348/409 but I can't remember what. Brain fart. The 409 truck engine is one of the most desired, '63 -'65. Or a set of Z-11 heads if you can find them for about 10 grand a piece. I'll try and find the article. Cheers!!!
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:15 AM
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I think Jahn's (are they still around?) made .125 over forged pistons for the 09. And they could put the pin in wherever you wanted it. With the 454 crank, the pin hole ended up in the oil ring land.

Like techinspector1 said, the pistons have a wedge shaped dome. The tops go up at an angle to about the center line of the piston and are then straight across. One of the problems with this engine is that Chevy and most aftermarket piston manufacturers made the undersides straight across. So you have this huge chunk of metal on one side of the centerline. You need to have someone who knows what they are doing machine the back sides of the dome to help improve this situation. You can't make it perfect, but you can make it better. Otherwise you are going to be hammering the cylinder walls pretty hard.
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Old 02-10-2006, 06:44 AM
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redsdad,

The W engines are not a perfect design. I can remember well that smokey yunick had some issues with the guys at GM back them because he told the W engine was the biggest piece of c*** he had ever saw in his life. The design itself had its share of problems, to prove it is true the fact that it satyed in production, as a RPO for 8 years, a relatively short period in GM timeline. The idea of having the combustion chambers in the cilinders instead of the heads was also tried by Fomoco in the MEL engine series, that also had the deck plane not squared to the cilinder centerline, but not at the same 18 degrees angle.
Guess the most important thing to have in mind when dealing with any oddball engine is keep the sense and avoid at all cost extreme modifications to it.
Some time ago I was asked to overhaul and take some more horses out of a local engine, a Emisul, basically a ford V8 flathead 60, with a set of ohv hemispherical chambered heads. The engine found its way into a Esplanada GTX, the first sports car Mopar built here in the 60. Asides a new cam ground by a local cam guru, balancing and blueprinting it, a 350cfm holley carb in place of the stock one, a MSD 6AL box triggeried by the stock dist with a 318 dodge reluctor and magnetic pick up and replacing the rope seals on both crank ends for acrilic seals, not much more was done, but what a difference. Can say for sure that many others had tried much more having much less results.
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Old 02-10-2006, 07:27 AM
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Show Cars Automotive http://www.show-cars.com deals with 348, 409 engines, parts etc. They offer a 409 .030" over Ross pistons with a reground 4" stroke with all the goodies resulting in 474 cuin. They have every thing you need for these engines and cars.
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Old 02-11-2006, 04:13 AM
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Super Chevy 20 years ago, 409 with 454 crank = 481 cubes. They used a PJ gear drive with BBC top'n'bottom and 351c idlers (probably due to the short deck height). No valve shrouding on a 'w' horse.
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Old 02-11-2006, 05:55 AM
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I'm pretty certain that most 348 blocks have enough material in them to reach the 409 bore size. However, most of the blocks you are going to find are so rusty that this might not be the structurally smart thing to do. Boring a 348 a good amount and then stroking the crank, would make it a good sized, yet still strong engine.

Actually, the 348 was an extremely good engine in terms of reliability. The high performance W engines had an oiling problem when they started cranking out alot of horsepower and turning some R's.

A 348 had tremendous torque and they never had to be rebuilt. It evolved into the big block chevy of today. It could not have been that bad of an engine.
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Old 02-11-2006, 06:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redsdad
Not sure about the 348, but the '09 was good for .125 over.

4.312 + .125 X 4" (454 crank) = 495!

"W" stands for WOW in this case.
I'm sorry to report this, when the 409 raced on the track the "W" stood for "wonder" in magazines like Hot Rod Magazine. "It is a wonder that the motor stayed together." Then some writer wrote that it should be called the "M" motor. As it was a "mystery" how any of them held together on the track. The "W" designation came from the shape of the Valve covers or at least this was how it was written at the time. I always been a Chevy fan and being young I could not understand how any one could write such things. Well do give me a 262-400 any day.
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