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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2012, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
Agreed but you cant just hone a beat block it will run really bad if at all. Now if its in good shape but most arent. If its got 50k miles on it its going to need a bore for sure no way around it. Taking it apart and honing it will make it burn oil and have poor compression. It would be better if you just left it together at that point.

Best to buy a kit take it apart and find out if it has oversized bearings in it. Then order everything at once from the same shop. The last one really helps.
Maybe I have been lucky, I just know that I personally have thrown parts at 2 stone stock short blocks, one with 60000 miles on it, and been exteremly happy with the performance, and this summer screwed together a 400 that had been sitting a long time, and had some pretty high mileage on it, that got a hone, bearings and rings, and vortec heads and a big lumpy cam and works real real well....did a 350 a month ago that the pistons looked like ***, so we grabbed a set from under my "parts I may need someday" bench and honed the block, and reassembled, that one didn't even get bearings as everything looked good and we were curious....it got Chinese alum heads, a big cam, and a victor Jr, 750 dp and went 12.02 in an 84 camaro....with serious traction issues. Will any of it live long? Not likely....but I bet in a weekend toy, or even a DD used with a bit of respect, a couple of fun seasons isn't out of the question while you save for better parts...and more importantly, he learned something, and had the budget to follow through on the build....and trust me, once it fires, and runs, and sounds like it should, the sense of pride alone will keep him in our camp, and once hooked.....he will want to go faster....and then can save, have a bigger budget the next time around.....like I say, its just one guys opinion....and I drive a lumpy vette pulled out of a field....so wadda I know lol....

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 10-21-2012, 06:47 PM
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The biggest problems with junk yard ring jobs is they might smoke a little and have blow by.They wont make as much power as a good sealing engine,might foul plugs,thats about it.Keep the oil topped upand drive it.They are no more likely to scatter than a new stock engine.

On the plus side an old engine thats loose and gets a longer duration cam can rev higher to make up for any power loss due to leak down. It will perform well enough.I remember when I got out of high school and finally took my 283 apart to put a cam in it.I found 5 cracked piston skirts and it was very loose.I never put it back together just bought a used 327. sold the 2.02 heads to some other 283 guy
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Old 10-21-2012, 07:46 PM
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hcompton I agree.A person could also buy a fitted block from a jobber and piece the rest together
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Old 10-25-2012, 06:14 PM
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WOW! I did not expect to get such a great response. I haven't had time to get on here the last few days and so when I did I was blown away! Thanks for all the suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bygddy View Post
For what your looking for, here's my suggestion and many won't agree, but having done it, recently....I'm speaking from my experience.
Have everything inspected, and if all checks out OK, have it honed, new bearings and rings, and call the bottom end done....leave the stock pistons and all, remember, this is a learning curve and also fun seeing what you can get for little money.
Find a set of 416 casting heads from a 305 Monte Carlo ss etc, research on here Fbird 88, do what he says pertaining to the heads, the machine shop will have plenty of 194 intake valves laying around, just ask them when you send out the heads. Assuming the motors you bought were complete, I would hope at least one has a qjet Carb on it, if not, check the classifieds, if you already have one, read, and research what to inspect, and rebuild if required.
Again, check the classifieds, find someone who "upgraded" to an air gap or single plane, and go buy their used performer rpm intake.
Order new, summit racing or jegs, lunati 10120101lk, barebones, under 100$ with lifters,
Again, summit or jegs for no name long tube headers for aroundn100$ for whatever platform your using.
Install in something that isn't a tank, run 410, gears, shift kit, and your done.
You can make this happen in your budget, the amount of motor you end up with will be decided by how much time you spend on the heads, I have over 40hrs in mine, I have driven fast cars, been in fast cars, grown up with fast cars, and was completely stunned, as was everyone else who rode in my vette, by how strong it really is...you will be satisfied....and look like a hero to your buddies for making "junk" parts work.......
There was one complete motor, everything except exhaust manifold...it's all stock from a 69 gm truck according to all the numbers I have been able to find and it had a gasket rebuild kit. I don't plan on doing much to that engine. I'm going to use it just to learn the bare basics...take it apart, clean it up and put it back to the way it was originally, Rochester 2 barrel and all.

The other engine is going to be the horsepower project and I plan on replacing the 350 that is in my Jimmy with it. The budget isn't really hard and fixed...it's more of a guideline to prevent me from taking the easy way out and say sending it off to an engine shop and telling them what I want it to be capable of when I get it back.

So far this is what I know and the parts I think will work:

The engine is a 1st Gen 350. I haven't noticed any defects the cylinder walls seem to be in good shape and it does have the rotating assembly but no top end. I'm still planning on the vortec heads with 64cc chamber and having them decked, I feel confident that I can port and polish them myself. I'm planning on flat top pistons with 10.2:1 CR and the rest of the mathematics to get me to an 8.06 DCR with a COMP Cams Xtreme 4x4 Camshafts 12-414-8. This is the basics about the cam "Hydraulic Roller Tappet, Advertised Duration 280/284, Lift .474, 1800-5800 RPM range"

That is as far as I have gotten and before I continue I would like some validation that I'm on the right track.

I'm also interested in a little more info on boring the 350 to 383. What does that involve besides having the block bored?

Last edited by 85jimmy350; 10-25-2012 at 06:20 PM.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2012, 06:57 PM
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I also have done a JY engine rebuild. The most expensive thing in the short block was the $40 ring set. The head is a different story...

I am still surprised everytime I go out there and turn the key and the damn thing starts right up. No problems at all. Most of the gaskets I didn't even replace, just went though a tube of RTV.

I will say that for the money you're better off skipping the Vortec's unless you already own them. If you have them they're good, but if you need to buy them, and springs, and machine work it adds up fast and you may as well get some better import heads.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2012, 07:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
6.0 inch rods give you the same deck height with even higher piston pin placement. These are said to give more power i will not get in to why. Just to say theycost alot more and give very little. 5.7 kits are the way to go.

They usually don't cost any more. And they usually work better due to slightly extended dwell at TDC and less rod angularity (side loading).


Going 383 is the exact opposite of a cheap build. They work great but by the time you're done it'll tack on an extra grand compared to reusing stock crank, rods, and pistons.
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Old 10-25-2012, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by ssmonty View Post
I might have missed it ,but I didn't read where anyone had mentioned to the OP about the tools needed to build an engine. Here's a link for an intermediate builders tools.Intermediate Engine Building - Popular Hot Rodding Magazine
You don't have to buy all these for a budget build, but some are going to be needed. IMO you'll need to buy or borrow a 1/2" torque wrench, balancer installer, oil priming tool, ring compressor, and feeler gauges(ring/spark plug gap).
You said you were going to port the heads, so you'll need a valve spring compressor to remove/install the valves. You'll need a valve spring mic, or a set of dial/digital calipers to install new springs/shims for spring installed height verification. I recomend the dial/digital calipers as you can use them for alot of other measures like piston in the hole depth for figuring compression.
Instead of a set of micrometers/bore gauge to measure crankjournals/main & rod bearing ID, you can get some kind of idea about clearances using Plastigauge, but its not the right way to check for journal/bearing runout IMO.
You'll need a gasket scraper, and a set of engine brushes to clean-up used parts.
You'll need a degree wheel, and a dial gauge/magnetic base to verify the cam install/specs. Or do like alot guys do and just install it and keep you fingers crossed.(bad idea IMO)
You'll need a timing light, vacuum gauge, & tachometer to tune it for best performance, or at least I do.
I'm not saying you have to buy all of these, but IMO you'll need to use most all of them if you want do do the job with any kind of peice of mind.
As far as 400hp IMO you'd be happier with more of a torque engine producing around 325-350hp on the street.
For 325-350hp with ported vortec heads, I'd recommend a max 9.0:1CR, a Comp Cams HE260 cam(212 deg @ 0.050") with matching springs, an Edelbrock Performer intake, and a 600cfm Holley vacuum secondary carb. You'll get to keep a stock stall trans convertor, and have great throttle responce from idle to about 5200rpm. Might be able to run 87 octane gas if quench is tight.
For 400hp with ported vortec heads, I'd recommend at 9.5:1CR, at least a Comp Cam 270 Magnum cam with matching springs(see comp catalog), an Edelbrock RPM intake, a 750cfm vacuum secondary carb, and a 2400rpm or higher stall convertor.
You didn't say what kind of car, trans, or rear gears your using, so I'm guessing its around 3200lbs, with an auto trans, and stock gears.
FWIW
ssmonty
My parent's run a pawn shop so it's pretty easy to get tools for cheap. The job specific are a little harder but not impossible plus I don't mind buying to have around.

I have an 85 full size Jimmy. 700r4 transmission and 4.56 gears.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2012, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
I also have done a JY engine rebuild. The most expensive thing in the short block was the $40 ring set. The head is a different story...

I am still surprised everytime I go out there and turn the key and the damn thing starts right up. No problems at all. Most of the gaskets I didn't even replace, just went though a tube of RTV.

I will say that for the money you're better off skipping the Vortec's unless you already own them. If you have them they're good, but if you need to buy them, and springs, and machine work it adds up fast and you may as well get some better import heads.
I am just looking through classifieds trying to find a guy who is trying to get rid of a set for cheap. I don't really have a timeline for when this has to be done. The 350 in my Jimmy runs fine. I was just looking for a project and I figured building an engine sounded like fun and it's something I would like to know how to do so in a couple years I can start teaching my son. Assuming I can find a well priced set in the classifieds would I need to replace the springs, valves, etc?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
You cant rebuild an engine and not replace the pistons. Its not a rebuild just taking it apart and putting it back together with all the same problems.

383 is very cheap. As i said if it needs crank work 383 is the same cost. Since you already need pistons to rebuild an engine. And new 383 crank on 350 bearings is only 199.99 so 383 has very little cost over stock rebuild. 400 crank has larger mains.

6" rods do cost alot more along with a small base circle cam and added work to get them to fit. Now you need to know how to install these as you have to cut alot more metal out of the block. Including the 100 more for 6 inch rods this kind of work cost way too much for the power you get. Done them both was not impressed. Talk all the internet bs you want...

I posted a link for a complete revuild kit with 383 rotating assbley with crank rods and pistons balanced! Only $999 Also has a cam of your choice. And its good stuff. Hastings, clevite, meldon, @ap72 What else do you want. Do you want a door to door stroker kit saleman to stop by the house. Google it hotrod did a big right up on how the cost is the same for 350. Lots of ppl have done them for next to nothing.
Without rereading all of this, I think the op had a 1000$ budget which means he would have a 999$ paper weight if the money isn't there to machine, assemble, heads, intake...yada yada yada.......I said it before, will say it again.....come down to Ottawa, we can go for a cruise in my 800$, 305 headed, stock short block junk, then we can go for beers, I will even buy, and you can maybe let me get in a couple "I told ya so's" lol......
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2012, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
You cant rebuild an engine and not replace the pistons. Its not a rebuild just taking it apart and putting it back together with all the same problems.

383 is very cheap. As i said if it needs crank work 383 is the same cost. Since you already need pistons to rebuild an engine. And new 383 crank on 350 bearings is only 199.99 so 383 has very little cost over stock rebuild. 400 crank has larger mains.

6" rods do cost alot more along with a small base circle cam and added work to get them to fit. Now you need to know how to install these as you have to cut alot more metal out of the block. Including the 100 more for 6 inch rods this kind of work cost way too much for the power you get. Done them both was not impressed. Talk all the internet bs you want...

I posted a link for a complete revuild kit with 383 rotating assbley with crank rods and pistons balanced! Only $999 Also has a cam of your choice. And its good stuff. Hastings, clevite, meldon, @ap72 What else do you want. Do you want a door to door stroker kit saleman to stop by the house. Google it hotrod did a big right up on how the cost is the same for 350. Lots of ppl have done them for next to nothing.
depending on the wear its quite common to rebuild an engine with the original pistons.

And with many 6" rods clearancing is not needed.


We were talking about a $1000 engine build- meaning clean and hone the block yourself, install a rering kit, a hotter cam, used intake manifold, used headers, and either port a set of heads or go with import castings.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2012, 12:02 PM
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what are you 2 guys arguing about?definitions?

freshen an engine
rebuild an engine
remanufacture an engine,
performance build an engine
balance and blue print an engine
full race prep an engine

pick one,define it,discuss that???
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
They are talking about just rering the engine. OP wants to rebuild. They are trying to say dont bore it no matter what. I am just trying not to give out shade tree advice when it could be done right and on budget. Everything you said about freshen and rebuild are all the same as far as bore is concerned. Once the rings have seated in its best to bore it. New rings will not seat correctly on an old bore. So no real diff. they all will need to be bored out to be right. If you had a new car you would not let the dealer replace the rings and tell you its fine. You would call your lawyer.

The arguing is over. ap27 disagrees with me on every post. He is always wrong and never researches anything he says. He is import dude. So always give advice that is only correct for four bangers and to ppl on forums. WAG's..... I posted links for the right parts and will let the OP decide how he wants to build his blocks. Unless the op has a question I am done trying to talk to ppl who have not seen the inside of an engine OP not included he honest in his quest for knowledge. I have rebuilt a bunch of engine from lawn mowers to 500 cube blocks. I have seen them come apart because of crappy old parts. Cash is the key if you build something that breaks done you got nothing but more cash to spend.

Not directed at you Vin or OP. Just need to vent a little. Shade tree mechanics burn my arse.
If there is no significant bore wear you can rehone a block and run new rings just fine- its done a hell of a lot. And yes, unlike you I have never experienced one of my engines coming apart. I guess if I ever need advice on how to break something I'll be sure to ask you.

Regarding the budget "wait until you have more money" is not an answer, its a lack of an answer. Given a good core, a basic 400hp sbc can easily be done for less than $1000 if you put the work in yourself and reuse a lot of factory parts.

FWIW, I'm not intending to argue, just correcting your bad advice so readers don't mistake it for valid information- its more for their benefit than your embarrassment. You embarrass yourself enough.
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:07 PM
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I forgot to include the word
Repair.
factory engines have specifications they need to meet,,,The tolerances are wide and in some circumstances not acceptable. I hope the O.P. does not get discouraged.
What I think he should do,is take a running engine apart,buy a gasket set ,measure all the parts and compare them to factory recommendations,then put it back together with the least amount of new parts and see how it runs.Things like timing chain and tune up parts need to be replaced.Maybe change the intake.Maybe change the cam and lifters to "slightly" enhance power,only after measuring old cam and calculating wear,if any. check all the valve train parts thoroughly,take the heads apart and check valve guide wear,if its fair or better just use it putting in new seals.clean and check valves,install new springs and retainers and tune her up and try to blow the thing up.If something fails,then look for assembley mistakes and do the next one better
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Old 10-26-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
I forgot to include the word
Repair.
factory engines have specifications they need to meet,,,The tolerances are wide and in some circumstances not acceptable. I hope the O.P. does not get discouraged.
What I think he should do,is take a running engine apart,buy a gasket set ,measure all the parts and compare them to factory recommendations,then put it back together with the least amount of new parts and see how it runs.Things like timing chain and tune up parts need to be replaced.Maybe change the intake.Maybe change the cam and lifters to "slightly" enhance power,only after measuring old cam and calculating wear,if any. check all the valve train parts thoroughly,take the heads apart and check valve guide wear,if its fair or better just use it putting in new seals.clean and check valves,install new springs and retainers and tune her up and try to blow the thing up.If something fails,then look for assembley mistakes and do the next one better
Exactly what I'm saying- except port the heads while you're there as its free power and throw on a set of used headers.

Just keep the cam within the limit of the heads and you can't go wrong. It really makes a big difference what cores you start with too- if you have a good short block with minimal wear and flat top pistons along with some Vortec or camel hump heads it makes making good power a LOT easier.
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Old 10-26-2012, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I don't know squat about these motors, but I have to agree.
Superb! Thats made my day!
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