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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-25-2007, 09:15 PM
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350 chevy

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleVision
Did you say there is no thermostat? You found the problem. The thermostat acts as a restrictor, if there is no thermostat the coolant can`t stay in the radiator long enough to cool it, so when the engine speed is picked up, the water pump turns faster, the coolant moves faster, and the coolant that just entered the radiator hasn`t cooled hardely any and it`s going right back into the engine so it runs hot. Install a 180 degree thermostat, NEVER run one without it. If it continues to run hot let me know, I have a 86 Cutlass, and I battled every type of cooling problem on that car you cam imagine until I got it completely figured out, I know the cooling systems on these cars front to back.
what does your car run at 210 220?
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Old 06-25-2007, 11:19 PM
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Nope, it runs at 180, 195 maximum. With all due respect mule. You can show me all the studies and posts you like. I`ll let him argue with why thermostats exist. I could care less about technical, my thought here is practical, does it not make perfect sense coolant has to have time to cool? had I knew you were going to get so technical about it I wouldn`t have wasted my time on this thread. Furthermore, if you want to run without a thermostat go ahead that`s not up to me, I was suggesting the guy who posted try one cause he was not using one. I didn`t write what I did to start a pissing contest and get into what this expert says and that expert says, I was trying to help the fellow repair his vehicle. As I said, I have a car almost identical, and I went through every step you can imagine on it running hot, I know the system backwards. and to test it one time I ran it without a T stat, it ran at a constant 225, and I am not comfortable with anything over 200. but that`s just me. If I wanted to get technical I would think we would be getting into race vehicles, not basic street vehicles. If you don`t want to run a Thermostat in your cutlass don`t. I guess a thermostat is a myth? why do they sell them? none of us need them according to these "myths" I`ve been on this board far long enough to know and have had enough posts to know also what might work for one might not on another, to each his own.
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Old 06-26-2007, 08:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxtonyrusxxx@yahoo.
my car idles at 180 190 and when i start driving its up to 210 220 is that to hott? and if so what could cause it i put no stat in it and i have a 3 core radiator and i disconnected the heater core pls help
back to the original question, I would put a 180 or a 195 in it and see what happens. I would also try to change th airflow pattern in front of the radiator to see if it makes any difference. Depending on the front end design, all the air could be going around the radiator instead of through it.
the thermostat will control the minimum operating temperature and will also control flow. I am a believer in running a thermostat. if sized properly and a quality t-stat there should be no negative impact
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Old 06-26-2007, 10:53 AM
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Here's my 2 cents on thermostats & coolant flow speeds...

Thermostats are also used to restrict flow speeds of the water going through the radiator. Also the old way to do the same was to use a washer with a certain size hole to replace a thermostat.

If you look at water pump listings for the old V-8 mopars, the A/C cars used a different impeller to SLOW the water down in the radiator to allow it to cool. That's fact.

Now if you are talking about a modified car that runs a custom built mega radiator that has way more cooling capacity than a stock OEM one, then that other stuff is no longer true. That's because that big radiator can cool the the coolant at any speed of flow.

Don't forget that car manufacturers are using the smallest & lightest radiators they can, to save money, weight, even less antifreeze, etc.....so those are running a marginal system for "normal" life use.
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxtonyrusxxx@yahoo.
well the guy up at nanpa told me my car should run 212! i dont know if thats true i never let it get over 205 i always turnned if off i put a stat in it today and im gonna see what happens tomarrow i reconneted the heater i blew threw it so i dont think its cloged well i hope everyone is right becasue im gonna take it for a cruise tomarrow and see how hott it gets i hope nopt over 212
Be sure your timing is correct and that it is not running to lean these will also make your motor run hot! I have chased a lot of cooling issues back to proper tuning. Just a thought
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Old 06-26-2007, 11:57 AM
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I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest either. I just posted the information I had about cooling. This is just my thought and don't want to get on the wrong side of folks. I'm sure there are as many technical links to your thought process too. I just wanted to show a different side.

Now that being said this is my opinion on T-stats. T-stats should be installed for many different reasons. The T-stat makes the water temperature a minimum. Engines must run at a certain temperature to get rid of any condensation that may occur. If you lived in a frigid area the motor might not ever warm up to a good operating temperature. Not only bad for the engine but the occupants. Read as freezing in their own car! T-stats also keep down the turbulence that would cause air bubbles to occur and then overheating would then be a problem again. These are just my opinion and take them as you want.


Mule
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 06-26-2007, 08:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
T-stats also keep down the turbulence that would cause air bubbles to occur and then overheating would then be a problem again. These are just my opinion and take them as you want.
Water pump cavitation is a huggeeee factor in taking thermostats out. That whole "flows too fast" theory is a bunch of bull. For crying out loud, the fluid has to flow through tubes that are only 1 inch in width by something along the lines of a 1/16" deep. It seems that flowing capabilities would need to be of the highest capacity to have the fluid flow through those small tubes. I don't care how high of a flowing capability waterpumps are, if you have to flow fluid through such narrow passages, your pump abilities are going to be hindered. A simple comparison is a garden hose. Leave the end fully open, a nice steady stream of water is coming out, now start to pinch it off. You can clearly see how you will flow no where near as much water as before hand, AND also take into consideration that the narrow passage will INCREASE backpressure in the hose and will actually move the water further then previously beforehand, which also brings me to the thermostat.

The ultimate purpose is to keep the engine's operating temperature fairly consistent so everything can operate correctly, especially now with the arseload of sensors that rely on the engine performing at the correct operating temperature. Also whenever people remove the thermostat to increase flowing, or so they think, the backpressure created by the thermostat will be absent, which will also hinder the water pump from doing its job. Without the proper backpressure to let the impeller blades actually move the water somewhere, it will just spin the water around the blades and not actually move any, creating local hot spots and cavitate the water pump. I believe that by actually removing the thermostat, you are ultimately signing your death wish by not flowing water fast enough .

Also take into consideration, why do you think there are a number of people that have problems of having the car never warm up when they remove the thermostat? Shouldn't they have the overheating problem that we've been led to believe is the cause from having water flow to fast? Their cooling system is up to the task and will actually overcool if that device is removed, and in some cases, overheat due to the waterpump cavitating. That is my belief.

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Old 06-26-2007, 08:25 PM
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Here's my two cents too!

I have had recent heating problems in two 327s recently and have both under control on S Fla 90plus high humidity both cars have A/C as well.

I have read the thermostat/ no thermostat question in several forums and have no experience. I drive both cars about 15 miles, so I run one to burn out the oil impurities as mentioned above.

I am running 200-210 on both cars as the top reading. Both cars needed more air flow which I added with electric fans, a single on the car with a flex-fan and a double on the car without a belt driven fan. With a 15 lb cap and 50/50 you boil at 235. I am old school and would like 180 but I don't feel the 210 is hurting anything with modern oils.

I highly advise the purchase of a laser temp gun to help you make your decisions (about $25-35). My temp gauge sender on one car is off the head and it reads a little low compared to the intake manifold. The other is a orginal equipment gauge and the sender and receiver arn't matched properly so the 210 is almost to the H. The temp gun, mines pencil size, keeps me from spending money and time based on incorrect info.

No mention of a shroud (or I missed It) One will sure make what you got run cooler!

I am also running a heat sump product in both my cars. This is a coolant additive that also goes by "wetter water" lingo. The one I use was developed for racing and causes the coolant to be be more conductive so the top of the engine is cooler and the bottom hotter so more heat is radiated out from the bottom end. No question it works, my cooling fans set on a temp control rarely run now as long as I am moving at 25 MPH. Cooling fan activity is down by probably 70% with the same slow speed driving in the no belt fan car. You can PM me if you want the product, I have no idea if its the best of the several that are out there, I'm happy to pay the $25 for the extra insurance.

I hope this helps.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-27-2007, 07:06 AM
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As long as it is not pucking, with a 13lb cap, means it is not hot. That will get you to about 240 ish with a 50/50 mix. If you keep the motor full of coolant , it will be OK. We all may not like 240degs but it is not hot enough to hurt it, as long as the motor is full of coolant. Do I want to see 240 ? Heck no!!! I like 185 with rest of you. That is not what I'M saying. I've had an occasion at nationals, in Oak City, in my car, that I could not get out of traffic. It was 115degs ambient. The motor was 260 degs, all weekend, but it did not boil over. I had the car for another five years with no problems.
Dave Tallant Hot Rods KC Mo
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Old 06-27-2007, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xxxtonyrusxxx@yahoo.
my car idles at 180 190 and when i start driving its up to 210 220 is that to hott? and if so what could cause it i put no stat in it and i have a 3 core radiator and i disconnected the heater core pls help
Lets go back to the original question.

Computing water pump, radiator, and passage flow rates against BTUs being produced is complicated engineering, for which the average street driven car has to make considerable compromises and allowances for acceptable performance across a broad range of operating conditions.

Assuming we're constrained by and receive acceptable performance from the components used, when you look at his basic problem of having adequate cooling at idle and inadequate cooling above idle the problem begins to expose itself. However, the absence of the heater circuit can be a contributor to the problem, as can the lack of a thermostat.

Basically, if an engine idles cool and runs hot, this describes an inadequate coolant flow problem or a radiator size issue. If an engine idles hot and runs cool, this describes an airflow problem across the radiator's core. The problem here is the former.

The question is why? Low coolant flow can be caused by:

- Wear, damage, or internal leakage around the impeller within the water
pump reducing its delivery volume.

- An undersized water pump that delivers an insufficient amount of coolant
as the engine speeds up.

- The ever popular undersized drive pulleys that cause insufficient coolant
flow.

- A thermostat that is stuck in a closed or partially closed position.

- A pump intake hose that collapses as pump speed increases suction on it,
this happens a lot when a hose uses an internal spring to maintain shape
that has broken or rusted away.

- A radiator that is plugged with corrosion or debris, reducing its flow.

- A radiator that is too small for the engine.

- In the case of Chevy Small Blocks, a lack of a heater bypass circuit.

You will note that all these conditions address insufficient coolant flow or a radiator of insufficient size. In the latter case if you're space constrained as with many conversions into older or smaller cars taking some load off the radiator can be helpful. These would include:

- Adding a separate from the radiator engine oil cooler. Engine oil not only
lubricates rubbing surfaces but also cools these internal surfaces that are
not touched by coolant jackets. The heat thusly gathered is both
transfered to the cooling system up in the heads and along the cylinder
walls by conduction of the heat from the oil across the structure into the
coolant and from the oil in the sump to the pan walls to the passing air
stream. By cooling the oil it's possible to reduce the heat load being
transfered into the cooling system, additionally, heat transferring from the
bearings into the bulkheads to the cooling jackets is now reversed with
heat flowing into the oil out with it to the oil cooler. This can easily take
enough BTUs off the radiator to drop coolant temps by 10 to 20 degrees.

- Adding a separate from the radiator automatic transmission oil cooler. An
automatic transmission dumps a lot of heat into the radiator especially if it's
running a high stall converter. Like the use of an external engine oil cooler,
using an external transmission oil cooler will take enough BTUs off the
radiator to lower coolant temps 10-20 degrees.

So the use of separate oil coolers is an effective way of gaining "thermal space" when the radiator size is constrained to less than ideal. I don't recommend adding oil coolers as a way to get around problems caused by underdrive pulleys, electric coolant pumps, or corroded radiators that should be replaced, but it will, also, work against those problems.

The thermostat is there to help the engine achieve operating temperature in a minimal time and to maintain the desired operating temperature within a close temperature range. It does this by limiting coolant flow with a temperature sensitive valve. To maintain a constant and consistent operating temperature; designers want a cooling system that has greater capacity than nominally needed. This results in a slightly oversize radiator, hoses, and coolant passages for the "average" driving situation such that the thermostat's restriction has authority over the engine's operating temperature. "Average" or "nominal" being the objectives and requirements set by the designer. This may not be your situation based on where you live and what you're doing with the vehicle. Changes in operating environment that get too far from the original design requirements will have problems. Combat story; I have two friends who decided to use their commuter Yukon and Durango that are normally freeway driven on the cool, wet, western side of the Cascades. They each saved money on their SUVs by not ordering the tow package. Each decided to tow camping trailers into the the hot desert mountains on the eastern side of the Cascades. They're traveling together so both vehicles see the same route at the same time of day. Both ended up with fried transmissions and engines. The Yukon owner blamed GM for his problems and bought a Ford Excursion, again without a towing package. The next summer while on vacation it went up in smoke towing the same trailer over the same route as the Yukon had the previous year. The Durango owner replaced the engine and transmission plus, at my urging, had his dealer retrofit the tow package. The next summer towing the same vacation trailer over the route at the same time as the Excursion guy, he experienced no overheating problems. The Excursion owner is now blaming Ford and buying a Toyota. So this is just a long way around about saying you have to keep in mind the limits of the original cooling system's design criteria when you go modifying or rebuilding an engine of an older vehicle or using a vehicle beyond its intended use. Especially these days, there is very little built in extra margin. Typically if you run a "nominally" designed vehicle with-in its intended design criteria without a thermostat, the engine will take a very long time to warm, sometimes if ever. Plus, anti-freeze coolants don't like to be cool, it tends to cause the inhibitors to precipitate out of solution. Then you get plugged passages and abraded seals. If you think Organic Acid inhibited coolants are safer, I direct your attention to the Dex-Cool law suits. Race engines are usually run with a restrictor that is trail and error selected to provide the desired operating temperature at performance speeds and loads. This is done simply to eliminate a potential problem where the car could have to retire from competition because of the failure of a 10 dollar part not that there is any special cooling magic about a washer in the return line to the radiator.

There's lots of talk about cavitation, this is a real problem that occurs when local liquid pressure drops around a spinning propeller, whether that propeller is a centrifugal pump, actual propeller, or a water turbine. In a pump, pressure is reduced on the intake side, a liquid, especially a hot liquid, can reach its vapor pressure and flash to "steam" forming a hole in the liquid. Or the impeller can simply out run the speed at which the liquid can move to fill in space behind the vanes and will form a hole in the liquid, this is called a separated flow. When either type of these holes collapse, powerful sonic forces are generated that shake the daylights out of the impeller, its shaft, bearing, and housing. These can cause physical damage to any of these parts. The voids, vapor, and foam thusly created can move into the cooling jackets where it prevents coolant from contacting hot surfaces. These surfaces will then overheat resulting in more vapor production and more overheating, it becomes a self supporting, self destructive cycle that can do incredible damage. The harder the pump has to pull on the coolant (as you get with insufficient flow thru the radiator for a given pump capacity), the worse this condition becomes. So the pump, radiator, cooling jackets/passages, and hoses (including a by-pass) must work in balance to minimize this condition. There is significant risk in slapping a high volume pump on otherwise ill prepared cooling jackets/passages and radiator because if you can't move the coolant thru those items, the caviation probability goes way, way up as the pump pulls harder on the intake side reducing pressure leading to vaporization of the coolant. The SBC is particularly sensitive to this, in-spite of the factory's attempt to control it with the little bypass built into the pump and block. By itself this bypass is insufficient. The heater circuit is a primary part of degassing and eliminating cavitaion problems by providing a sizable bypass in the system. Whether a heater core is included or not, the SBC is a lot happier with a connection from engine side of the thermostat to the intake side of the pump. The "heater" bypass provides a return of coolant to the intake side of the pump when the thermostat is closed, it, also, smooths flow differentials that occur as the thermostat functions to maintain temperature, and it provides a path for trapped vapor to escape without "locking" the thermostat (that's to say that a cloud of vapor is a very poor heat conductor, if trapped around the thermostat, the thermostat will cool and close no matter how hot the engine gets, this makes more vapor and again were back to a self-sustaining, self destructive problem). The bypass can be eliminated when using a restrictor instead of a thermostat as any vapor may freely pass, but for a non-competition engine, this adds a lot of time to the warm up cycle which is where most bearing wear, oil contamination from water (water is the most prevalent product from combustion and enters from blow-by, I know most people think it gets there from the atmosphere and a tiny bit does) and fuel both of which which leads to sludge formation and fuel washing of the cylinder-walls induced wear, and noxious emissions occur. Plus without a thermostat we're back with the cold performance problems of green ethylene glycol based coolants. Or you're back into the Dex-Cool trap if you go that way where you absolutely must never allow air (oxygen) into the system or you can kiss it all good by (that first orange drip is the kiss of death to your engine). You'd be better off with distilled water and soluble pump lubricant but from from a corrosion point of view, that ain't no gift either. Remember "Corrosion Inhibited" is not corrosion proof, these things slow it down, not make it go away. One can hardly recommend treating the motor this way. Remember that dissimilar metals (cast iron and aluminum) in the presence of an electrolyte (water molecules) is the definiton of a battery. Diluting the water with glycol or oil makes less water not no water.

You will note that most of this talks about fairly high flow rates that are controlled by the thermostat. These are closed loop cooling systems and to the extent that coolant doesn't move so slowly that it boils against the surfaces to be cooled, nor so fast that it forms voids in the pump and or the coolant passages, the speed at which it moves is irrelevant. That said it must move at a rate proportional to the BTUs created at any given moment. The problem here is that there's a hidden assumption that BTUs go up with RPM. Thus the faster the engine turns the greater the cooling capacity, within some reasonable limits of course. The big rub comes when pulling hard, like towing or climbing a steep grade. Assuming you can hold the speed limit at a given RPM, for that situation you're using a lot more throttle which means more BTUs being developed with no additional cooling thru increased RPM. At this point you're at the mercy of the designer having over-sized all the capacities of the components and having depended upon the thermostat to control temperatures when the engine is not being worked so hard for a given RPM. This is one reason why shifting to a lower gear will help cool in this situation by 1) speeding coolant flow up in proportion to BTU creation. 2) Increasing mechanical advantage over the load, reducing throttle opening and specific power which might reduce BTU generation depending upon the specific load against the power setting for the gear ratio.

I could go on but this just get technically uglier.

Bogie

Last edited by oldbogie; 06-27-2007 at 05:43 PM. Reason: structural clean up of badly formed sentences
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Old 06-27-2007, 04:47 PM
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You ain`t kiddin, I ain`t never seen a thread get this technical over a simple problem like cooling. The guy is prolly so confused now he dunno if`s he coming or going, wayyyyyy over blown, and as I said, simple, I know these cars front to back, I own one, and there`s nothing technical to there cooling system.
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Old 06-27-2007, 06:52 PM
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To simplify the whole thing I think you have one of three issues

1 Poor coolant flow
2 Poor air flow
3 Retarded ignition timing.

As I stated earlier, I would try putting in a good Miladon or Mr Gasket thermostat. Every production car came with a thermostat so that would lead me to believe that they probably have positive impact on the cooling system.
you can also cut back you mix from 50/50 if this is a warm weather only car. Water has better heat transfer capabilities than antifreeze.
The cap has no effect on cooling. The pressure produuced by the cap aids in anti boil capacity. Every pound of pressure raises the boiling point approximately 3 degrees. So if running pure water which would boil at 212 a 15lb cap would raise that another 45 degrees.

All the theories in the world are not worth anything if they can be applied. The advice I have given you is from 35 years of automotive repair experience.
A cooling system is not real complex to make work. Air flow and water flow are the key ingredients.
Good luck with it, hopefully this thread has not discouraged you. You hapend to hit on one of the most controversial topic ever discussed.

Chet
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Old 06-28-2007, 07:59 PM
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350 over heating

thanks everyone for the advice but it was the dumbest thing the fans were running backwords and thats wwhy is was over heating im running 165 now should i put a bigger stat in it i have a 160 now
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:12 PM
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Hey! Don't worry about it! At least you found out what was happening!! Put a higher temp T-Stat in it! 160 is too cool, it won't get rid of any condensation that might build up in the engine. Congradulations.

Mule
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Old 06-28-2007, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mule
Hey! Don't worry about it! At least you found out what was happening!! Put a higher temp T-Stat in it! 160 is too cool, it won't get rid of any condensation that might build up in the engine. Congradulations.

Mule
thanks man i was worried there for a min
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