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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
good point,,,I should have written "facing the carb" left is ported/timed....
rule #1: assume nothing!!!
I did assume he was facing the carb (and the illustration is facing the carb)
Ah ha! I am an aircraft mechanic (and pilot) so everything I refer to as well as most aircraft mechanics and pilots, is from the pilot's position UNLESS looking at a diagram. IN this case I was referring to the diagram FACING the carb references. Can get confusing huh?


Quote:
"assume nothing" includes telling you that you will need a timing light...
I assumed you have one because you referenced base numbers not typically marked on a stock damper....
(there are some aftermarket performance dampers that do have base degrees marked out to 18 so you can be setting the base without a light)
The damper only has one "dash", "mark" or "line" nothing else. But I do have a timing light.

Quote:
comment:
setting up ign timing is not a "tinkering" project at all....
"best" performance setting is darn close to the motor detonation point so you have to do small precise changes steps...
the spark event is only microseconds duration and you are trying to deliver the spark when the piston (which is moving at 100's of feet per second!!!) is at a exact precise location in the bore ATDC...
Understood. I may have used the word incorrectly.

THANKS AGAIN!

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
On your 1406 carb, the full time (manifold) vacuum port is the LEFT (drivers side) port.

You said earlier "Distributor vacuum is connected to the left side vacuum of the carb and my vacuum gauge inside on the column is connected to the right side vacuum port on the carb."

If the vacuum gage is set up this way, and the left and right references are correct, you have the vacuum gage set up on the ported vacuum port. This will not give a correct reading at idle!

This also would mean that the distributor's vacuum advance is on the manifold vacuum port- this would be fine... but I have the feeling that your references are as you face the engine, not as you sit in the car. If this is the case, try putting the vacuum advance line onto the drivers side port and see if the vacuum at idle improves. You will need to lower the curb idle if it was on the ported side before.

This can be confusing- you (and the others here) need to refer to all "left" and "right" as if you were sitting in the seat of the vehicle, OR specify "as you face the engine or carb", or words to that effect.

Better to just say "drivers" or "passenger" side, that way there's no question as to what side you're talking about.

But bottom line, if nothing else is said, "left" is always the drivers side and vice versa.

BTW, your 1406 is a 600 CFM carb.
I mis-informed on my locations, I have them correct...sorry!

Also, I noticed the 1406 was also available with a 800 cfm but I doubted seriously I had that one. Actually there was no question about it but I just had to discribe it with a (?)
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 09:24 AM
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Blue,
I'm still concerned about the Hg (is the rotating assembly healthy)

do this test for me:
warmed up on a level road downshift 3rd to 2nd at about 50mph with no gas pedal and read the vac gauge...
post the results please...

a stock or mild cam motor will read 24Hg+ and steady if everything internal (rings and valves etc) is sealing correct...
25-26 is "excellent" sealing...
it's not a conclusive test for sealing because we don't know what cam is in the motor...

reads low?
next step is to measure the actual cam lift at the rockers with calipers for a decent clue to what the cam duration actually is...
(with a big cam you need to write down the downshift Hg when the motor is fresh,,,for a initial reference point)

edit: LOL,,,now I am confused,,,is the vac adv hooked to ported or to manifold???

on manifold the mechanic may well have backed it down to only 4 base because the vac unit is adding plenty of degrees even at only 10Hg...

Last edited by red65mustang; 01-16-2010 at 09:42 AM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue84JeepCJ7
the 1406 was also available with a 800 cfm but I doubted seriously I had that one. Actually there was no question about it but I just had to discribe it with a (?)
Not to put too fine of a point on this but the 800 CFM square bore Performer carb was either a 1412 or -13, depending on choke type.

The Thunder AVS series 800 CFM are 1812 and -13.

BTW, the 1406 is set up w/a leaner calibration, more for mileage than performance. If you see a lean condition, obviously you can change the jets and rods easily.

Just as an example, using this same carb on a fairly mild SBC, primary jetting had to be changed to 104 jets and 75x37 rods front and back.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue84JeepCJ7
The damper only has one "dash", "mark" or "line" nothing else. But I do have a timing light.
I don't know how deep your pockets are, or whether you enjoy making things instead of buying them, or how valuable your time is, but the link on page 1, post #6 is for making a timing tape out of a piece of masking tape. Takes maybe 5-10 minutes to do. This allows you to use a non dial back-type timing light to see the timing at values not covered by the OEM tab.

The damper itself can be marked at 36 degrees (or any other values you might want) while the tape is still fresh.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
Blue,
I'm still concerned about the Hg (is the rotating assembly healthy)

do this test for me:
warmed up on a level road downshift 3rd to 2nd at about 50mph with no gas pedal and read the vac gauge...
post the results please...

a stock or mild cam motor will read 24Hg+ and steady if everything internal (rings and valves etc) is sealing correct...
25-26 is "excellent" sealing...
it's not a conclusive test for sealing because we don't know what cam is in the motor...

reads low?
next step is to measure the actual cam lift at the rockers with calipers for a decent clue to what the cam duration actually is...
(with a big cam you need to write down the downshift Hg when the motor is fresh,,,for a initial reference point)

edit: LOL,,,now I am confused,,,is the vac adv hooked to ported or to manifold???

on manifold the mechanic may well have backed it down to only 4 base because the vac unit is adding plenty of degrees even at only 10Hg...
Quote:
edit: LOL,,,now I am confused,,,is the vac adv hooked to ported or to manifold???
Vacuum advance is connected to the "ported" port.
Vacuum Gauge is connected to the "full time" vacuum port.


Quote:
downshift 3rd to 2nd at about 50mph with no gas pedal and read the vac gauge...
post the results please...
Deceleration from 50mph, from 3rd to 2nd, with foot off the gas was dead on 25Hg

Last edited by Blue84JeepCJ7; 01-16-2010 at 12:21 PM.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Not to put too fine of a point on this but the 800 CFM square bore Performer carb was either a 1412 or -13, depending on choke type.

The Thunder AVS series 800 CFM are 1812 and -13.

BTW, the 1406 is set up w/a leaner calibration, more for mileage than performance. If you see a lean condition, obviously you can change the jets and rods easily.

Just as an example, using this same carb on a fairly mild SBC, primary jetting had to be changed to 104 jets and 75x37 rods front and back.
No problem either way I don't much about them. Here is what I saw on Edlebrocks website.

#9906 Edelbrock Reconditioned #1406 Performer Series Carburetor 600 cfm, Electric Choke

#9963 Edelbrock Reconditioned #1406 Performer Series Carburetor 800 cfm, Electric Choke

On the carb base, front, passenger side (hehehe) is the part number 1406. Beside it is stamped 1963. Don't know what that means!
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 01-16-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue84JeepCJ7
No problem either way I don't much about them. Here is what I saw on Edlebrocks website.

#9906 Edelbrock Reconditioned #1406 Performer Series Carburetor 600 cfm, Electric Choke

#9963 Edelbrock Reconditioned #1406 Performer Series Carburetor 800 cfm, Electric Choke

On the carb base, front, passenger side (hehehe) is the part number 1406. Beside it is stamped 1963. Don't know what that means!
I'm thinking: Typo!

No biggie either way, at least as far as the gasket kits go- AFAIK, the gaskets are the same for all the Carter-type Performer carbs.
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:08 PM
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25hg test results pretty much confirms it has a mild cam
(many many miles from now when that same downshift test shows 23 it's time to start thinkin' bout a rebuild)

12 base plus 22 centrifigal all in at 3000 plus 10-13 vac adv is a very common and safe starting point....
"best settings" depends on your specific car weight/tires size and rear gear ratio

if the timing changes doesn't improve the idle Hg,,,do check that the carb base and intake manifold are torqued to their correct values...
(25hg downshift results means they are the only 2 possible vacuum leak sources left)

click on each graph on this link tells you the typical best idle hg at what rpms with that much cam duration...
(I'll be happier when your motor shows 15+ at 700)

http://www.compcams.com/Technical/DynoSheets/

800cfm 1406 is definitely a typo...
being a aircraft mechanic I expect you will like the Edie,,,because,,,each change has a "known" exact change result....

cobalt,
please do continue to point out any errors I make on any thread....
my brain is broken...
"use it or lose it" is why I post on this board
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Old 01-16-2010, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
please do continue to point out any errors I make on any thread....
my brain is broken...
"use it or lose it" is why I post on this board
I'd much rather look at it as keeping us on the same page- me included. There's already enough ambiguity in this hobby/profession to go around, IMHO. Anything to lessen the uncertainty.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:34 PM
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About the Vacuum begin low, I ran a mild 350 Chevy in my Jeep, similar to yours.

350 Chevy
ported 993 heads, 8.5:1 compression
Crane Powermax 272/284 camshaft
Headers.
Edelbrock Torker intake.
Holley 600 4bbl carb,

I was running with 17" hg vacuum at idle, 600-700 rpm, if i remember correctly.
So to me it seems like you could adjust your mixture a little.

Best regards
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2010, 06:51 PM
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Does anyone know what the distributor timing (accel 71100E) is from the factory? I found a 41 series that is set to 12Deg. I just can not find the info for the 71 series. My plan is to make my timing marks tomorrow afternoon when I get home from work. I may run outta time to check further until this weekend! Today it ran just great but I just gotta know!!!!!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 01-18-2010, 06:53 PM
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I found it:

http://www.accel-ignition.com/pdf/71000.pdf

Now to just find out what mine actually is set too!

Last edited by Blue84JeepCJ7; 01-18-2010 at 08:04 PM.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2010, 04:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Be sure that the TOTAL timing (mechanical plus initial) is at or below 34-38 degrees so it doesn't detonate at WOT conditions in the upper rev range where it's hard to hear.

You can run more initial advance, up to the point that you have run-on when you shut the engine off, or hard starting due to the advanced timing. Just adhere to the (about) 36 degree total advance.

A good way to do it, is to set the total to, say, 36 degrees. Then see where the timing is at when idleing. If the timing at idle w/the total set to 36 degrees is below the 14 degrees BTDC that the engine likes, you will need to limit the total advance to a setting that will allow you to run the initial timing you need. On your Accel distributor this is a piece of cake to do, thankfully.

I would suggest running the vacuum advance from a full-time (manifold) vacuum source at the base of the carb.

You already know the drill for adjusting the idle mixture screws and setting the curb idle, so I'll skip all that.

If you don't have (or want to check the accuracy of) a dial back timing light, take a couple minutes and MAKE A TIMING TAPE.

If you have any doubt as to the accuracy of your timing marks on the tab and damper, the drill for DETERMINING TDC is also available.

Good luck, and that Jeep's a real looker!
I will get this done this afternoon when I get home from work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratchet
Results
10 degrees of initial
26 degrees at idle (initial plus vacuum)
46 to 48 degrees at cruise (initial plus vacuum plus mechanical)
34 degrees at Wide open throttle (initial plus Mechanical)
Ric
Pending my actual mechanical timing mine could be,
16 degrees of initial
29 degrees at idle (initial plus vacuum)
53 degrees at cruise (initial plus vacuum plus mechanical)
40 degrees at Wide open throttle (initial plus Mechanical)
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 01-19-2010, 04:46 AM
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One thing I may have to consider. I use a 700R4 transmission w/manual lock-out switch and my Differential gears at 3.73. With lock-out engaged at 55mph, it gets a tad underpowered and vacuum drops to about 8Hg. It will accelerate but its slow so I have to disengage the lock-out if I need power at 55mph. 65mph is great with a steady 13-15Hgs with plenty of acceleration.
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