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  #106 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2010, 04:34 PM
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Thanks again but I admit failure and its in the shop to be fixed Monday! I drove it to work but it wasn't right. I checked it over and over and discovered that the reluctor (star shaped gear under the rotor) was not lined up enough with the metal strip on the magnetic pick up coil, for me to get a good feeler gage reading/setting. I did the best I could but I'm gonna let the pros get it right. He is also gonna set the vac advance while he has it.

I did learn a lot and it ain't over yet!!!!!

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  #107 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2010, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
blue,
these numbers (from my older than dirt engine analyzer software) following are only a illustration of what happens to the low rpms TQ output with a performance cam

stock 8.0CR 350 with a typical 196/204 oem cam with a 600cfm carb WOT:
500=85 ft/lbs TQ at the flywheel
1000=209
1500=279
2000=305
2500=312
3000=309

14Hg at 850 rpms idle says your cam is around a 220/230 grind,,,with no other motor changes the TQ output is:
500=0 ft/lbs TQ at the flywheel
1000=84
1500=184
2000=235
2500=267
3000=277

the difference doesn't look like much until you multiple it by the tranny ratio and by the rear gears ratio to find the actual total ft/lbs applied to the tires....

picking the 1500 rpms #'s for the example:

stock cam 1500rpms=279ft/lbs from the motor x 1.0 tranny 3rd gear x 3.37 rear gears=940ft-lbs of force on the tires...
stock cam in OD =279 x .70 x 3.37=only 658ft-lbs available at the tires

220/230 cam 1500rpms =184ft-lbs x 1.0 (3rd gear) x 3.37=620ft-lbs available
220/230 cam in OD=184 x .70 x 3.37=only 434 ft-lbs available to keep the 4,000 lbs car weight moving!!!
YUP a head wind will for sure knock down the Hg!!!!!

LOL, that is about like asking one Shetland pony to pull the Budweiser beer wagon at 60 mph!!!
he'd be huffing and puffing same as your motor is doing,,,lowHg=rich carb= the motor is "trying" as hard as it can to make enough power to maintain the speed...

sorry, the vac adv isn't going to do much because you are so far out of balance for TQ at the tires versus weight...

the gears are no where deep enough in OD to get your cammed motor to the rpm-TQ output needed so the motor isn't huffing and puffing at cruise....
the illustration numbers show your motor needs to be at 3000rpms=277ft/lbs to produce the same TQ that the stock cam does do at only 1500rpms=279ft/lbs of force which a gears swap will do....

rather than swap 2 sets of gears I would change the cam and never use OD...
ex?:
a "RV" grind is designed to help make the most/best TQ possible "at" normal driving rpms range with just normal pedal...
they are excellent for quickest 0-60mph WOT which is what you do want on the streets for fun....

PS/fyi
the jeep doesn't like 55mph because the carb is teetering on the Hg/TQ/rpms point where the springs on the rods do move them up to the richer position....
(at cruise they are normally down because the Hg is higher than the spring rating)
richer rods and/or a springs change would fix that...
BUT only 8Hg at 55 is telling you don't use OD,,,,you are "lugging" the motor

edit:
park and in drive values are normal/typical for a roughly 220/230 cam and stock 1800rpms? stall convertor....

Here seems to be a nice article I read after your suggestion of an RV cam.

Cam Tests

note the vacuum readings at 750rpm



Last edited by Blue84JeepCJ7; 01-29-2010 at 08:33 PM.
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  #108 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2010, 06:57 AM
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blue,
yup, those chart numbers results lines up nicely with the comp cams link graphs and info I posted....

problem with all the Hot Rod dyno charts is they are dyno testing with the 4V carb wide open on all 4 barrels worth of cfm and full rich at about 2-4Hg which only tells you "max" possible power....
(you don't drive on the street with your foot constantly to the floor)

for help researching a cam choice,,,go directly to the major cam grinders sites (isky/comp/lunati/crower/howards/etc/etc)....
each one of them has a tutorial and/or interactive software to submit your car details and/or a "help" box to submit the car info...
(do ask any single question on atleast 3 sites to evaluate the info)

but my$.02!!!:
you already have mentioned the best choice!!!
which ever stock 350 truck cam has the best low end TQ curve that was used with your particular cylinder heads!!!

they engineered the "whole" motor combo to get those TQ results,,, (carb cfm/intake runners/heads design/cam/ign timing= max air velocity possible at lower rpms to get best cylinder fill possible).....
your carb and intake will work plenty fine....

making more top end power is relatively straight forward...

making ALOT more low end TQ sooner,,,when there is next to nothing there to improve on,,,, and ALOT more max TQ,,,,, because of a V8 motor layout package design is truly a challenge....

that was the challenge I set for myself when building my present 302 motor,,,it can be done (I went from stock 280 max to 340 ft/lbs and 300+ at only 2k) but it was a tremendous amount of hours tweeking every single last part (and research)...
why? goal= 0-60mph in 5 seconds at 3200lbs with 3.55 gears on 87 octane...
brand new sticky asphalt it will do it...
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  #109 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2010, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
but my$.02!!!:
you already have mentioned the best choice!!!
which ever stock 350 truck cam has the best low end TQ curve that was used with your particular cylinder heads!!!
My cylinder heads are stock crate heads that came with the engine. I must assume that all insides are also stock except maybe the lifters that may have gone along with the cam.

Here is what I have

Block Casting #10066036
Target Master/Goodwrench Crate motor, 2 piece rear seal. "Heco en Mexico" (Made in Mexico)
Probably dish pistons, 76cc chambered heads 9.1-1
Stamped rockers maybe 1.5 ratio

Heads are casting number 33417369, part number 14034803

on the heads in this order left to right
GM12 33417369 99
Above the cast number is 230

Looks like I wrote down the year 1990 during a research a while back.
I also have wrote down 993 heads - larger chamber
76cc 1.94 intake 1.50 exhaust
8.5-1

not sure if that is what I have or just info on something I wrote down.
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  #110 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2010, 07:57 AM
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I defer to the many knowledgable chebbie members to help on which cam...

(hard enough for me to just keep "any" Ford info in my head anymore)

do some reading on the cam sites so the posts that follow will be easier to understand...

????
do some reading/research on the Sallee Chevrolet (dealer site),,,they are a respected motor builder that does offer oem based cam parts combos and aftermarket cam combos...

you are not really doing damage as it is,,,(plenty of air velocity for atomization at 2k with low Hg) so take some time researching the cam..

I just wouldn't use the OD for now,,,it's not likely helping mpg (ex: my car is 16-17mpg at 3400=70mph=18Hg,,,18mpg at 60mph=20Hg=the no load Hg)

Last edited by red65mustang; 01-31-2010 at 06:47 AM.
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  #111 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2010, 05:10 PM
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What would you think is the best distributor for my application? I notice that the 71100E is no longer available from Summit. I think it was replaced with the 52 series.
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  #112 (permalink)  
Old 01-30-2010, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
500=0 ft/lbs TQ at the flywheel
1000=84
Explains why reverse sucks on an incline!
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  #113 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 06:31 AM
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re:dist
?????
if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!

according to this info your dist is a darn well made dist compared to many:

http://go.mrgasket.com/pdf/ACCELdistributors.pdf

my$.02:
because it is the small diameter cap type=small spacing between the cap contacts compared to the large HEI dist type cap contact spacing,,,I would use a .040 max plug gap to help insure no arcing under the cap...
(I just glimpsed at the recommended coils)
coil recommendations are a relatively low primary resistance so it is operating at relatively high amps (same as a "high ign energy"=HEI=MSD, etc)...
(GM and Ford learned real quick they HAD TO use a larger diameter cap contact spacing to use .045+ gap with alot more amps!!!)
(less gap=longer coil and module life and more heat in the spark)

second reason for max .040 is the present low Hg rich mix cruise conditions "ain't great" for the plugs to be able to clean themselves....
less gap = coil needs to build to less Kv to be able to jump the gap to burn thru the mix and that leaves more milli-amps to actually make more heat during the spark event to burn off the crap...
(if the plugs are at .045 and soiled,,,the coil needs to build to much higher Kv to be able to jump the gap and that can cause chaos under the cap...)
"ALOT more gooder (plug gap) is not always more good!!!"

LOL,,,
the crummy slow reverse up a grade is worse than you noted....
reverse gear is a much lower/deeper ratio than 1st gear so it should back up easier than in drive...

yup, your over-cammed/under geared for the weight and tires diameter and torque convertor....
"ALOT more gooder (cam) is not always more good"

Last edited by red65mustang; 01-31-2010 at 06:53 AM.
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  #114 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
re:dist
?????
if it ain't broke don't fix it!!!!
yeap, when I get it back it wont be broke...lol I just couldn't get that gap needed. However, doesn't mean I didn't damage the ignition module somehow. You know how those electronic boards can be sensitive! I also installed those E plugs. Pretty good in my case. It did idle smoother and has a bit more pep.

I won't be changing anything any time soon but I do plan on a cam change within the next few months. Until then this thing will do just fine in 3rd @55mph and OD @70mph. Not crazy about driving a CJ7 faster than that although I did have it at 85 once!!
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  #115 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 08:28 AM
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the E plug can help because it has a huge surface area "sharp edge" on the ground strap...
sharp clean edge = less kv needed to initiate the gap jump so it is roughly the same as using less gap on a regular plug...

but,,,

the E plug center electrode is a higher resistance material than normal (to survive for 100k miles) which means higher kv is needed to receive the kv arc from the strap....
so the verdict is still out for are they any better than normal plugs????

as always,,,marketing first pulls you in with a known fact (sharp edge) then piles on the "new" features BS and never mentions the negative...

Last edited by red65mustang; 01-31-2010 at 02:48 PM.
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  #116 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
the E plug can help because it has a huge surface area "sharp edge" on the ground strap...
sharp clean edge = less kv needed to initiate the gap jump so it is roughly the same as using less gap on a regular plug...

but,,,

the E plug center electrode is a higher resistance material than normal (to survive for 100k miles) which means higher kv is needed to receive the kv from the strap....
so the verdict is still out for are they any better than normal plugs????

as always,,,marketing first pulls you in with a known fact (sharp edge) then piles on the "new" features BS and never mentions the negative...
Treat them like aircraft plugs ($25each for 12 -two per cylinder), change them every 200 hours ;-)
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  #117 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 02:05 PM
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So Blue, what was the cause of your popping/backfire?
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  #118 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
So Blue, what was the cause of your popping/backfire?

lol, nevermind!
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  #119 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue84JeepCJ7
lol, nevermind!
I kinda thought it might be something embarrassing... Live and learn, and re-learn is often my case, too.
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  #120 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2010, 06:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I kinda thought it might be something embarrassing... Live and learn, and re-learn is often my case, too.

lol, it was what I said I thought it sounded like!!!!
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