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Old 01-11-2010, 11:09 PM
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350 vs 383 build for performance

Some of you might know that i was going to build a 500 hp 327. after TONS of researching, i have decided to build a 350 or 383. the main reason is being able to find a manual tranny to handle shifting at 7500.... no bueno with a tko .

so i want the same 500+hp, but with (obviously) more torque and the ability to shift at 6500. the build will have all aftermarket parts (except the block) and be performance oriented with bad street manners...

BUT....

i have read some bad (not bad, just not what i want to do) thinks about 6" rod 383's, as well as 5.7" rod 350's and 383's (i'm talking bad RL/stroke ratio)

other things include clearance issues between cams and 7/16 rod bolt connecting rods (more with H-beams that I-beams).

why is there such a huge debate on I-beams vs H-beams? i have read a ton about them, and still can't decide which ones to use???

I have only found a few balanced 383 kits with i beams, but Lunati only offers h-beams in there kits.

what is the difference between scat/eagle and lunati/howards??? there seams to be about a $500-$1000 difference between kits with forged cranks and pistons.

i also read a lot that saying that 6" rod 383 pistons use oil because the wrist pin is in the oil rings.

I plan on using comp cams' pro street solid roller. i have seen two build with this cam... one a 327 and one a 383.

the 327 peaked at 7100 with 553hp, and the 383 peaked and 6900 with 571hp. both builds had aluminum CNC'd heads (afr 195's, and dart 227cc respectively) both were run on pump gas, but the overall cost of the two seams pretty close.

500 hp 327

What i am really getting at... Is it worth it to go 383 over a 350 when you are performance oriented? this will be on the street a lot so i don't want to use a ton of oil and have my pistons/cylinder walls wear fast.

i am hoping that this will also help others on deciding what path to take, because i am stuck in the crossroads...

thanks, josh

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Old 01-12-2010, 07:23 AM
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As a very general rule, if you're going to be on the street and you want reliability, more cubic inches are your friend. Revs will wear an engine down over time, there aren't a whole lot of 7100 RPM 150,000 mile motors out there.

I would built the 383. Your power is going to come on sooner with the larger cube motor which "feels" faster, but also gives you help on the street where your effective RPM range is really 1500-3500.

As far as "balanced" is concerned, I would never build a motor based on somebody else's claim of a balanced spec. I bet when you take any of those kits to the machine shop you'll find they're not as zeroed out as they claim.

Eagle cranks are usable but you can plan on machining them out of the box. THey have a bit of a bad rep for machine quality but are durable when you get them right.

I would stay away from a solid roller on the street. Those tiny bearings in the roller get beat up very quickly and if they decide to let loose you'll be fishing bits of metal out of your motor. They are not a setup for a long-term motor.

With the power levels you're looking at for this build you're starting to get into high-dollar parts. You're going to need forged pistons, stout rods, probably a forged crank. I wouldn't use a stock block either when you're getting up around 600 horse.

If it were my build I'd tweak it such that the power comes on sooner and the RPM's and load on the motor are a bit more manageable. Do you really need 600 horse? What was the last motor you ran?

K
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Old 01-12-2010, 07:01 PM
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for starters, i just got into hotrodding about a year ago. got my first v6 camaro, then got a v8 camaro, now i need a new motor.

This is my hobby, so i am not just asking to build a normal motor. my purpose is power and strait line acceleration.

my last motor was a 327 from my stepdad. 4200-7200 crane oval track solid flat tappet cam. after pulling it apart it had 462 heads, speedpro forged pistons, 327 LG forged crank, arp bolts in the rods. it pulled real nice, but i killed the t-5 that originally had a calm 350 behind it. i also had 1-1/2 headers, so i will be upgrading the exhaust.

i had that 327 up to 7000 ALL the time, i liked driving it on the street, i got lots of compliments. after i tore i down, cylinder walls still had a nice crosshatch pattern, all was good Except that it was overheated and the piston rings scratched the cylinder wall pretty bad.

i understand that i need all forged parts, and i am not trying to "get by" with cheap part. i believe i will get a lunati or howards kit because i don't want to deal with junk.

you said that solid roller cams don't last long.. how about hydralic rollers? or how about solid flat tappet?

i want a mix of power an some longevity. i think it will only see 10-15k miles a year, less when i get a second car.

i guess since i need more street oriented performance, i might even do a 400sbc, but i have heard that they are weak when it comes to high rpm/ 500+hp. so i will definitely do an aftermarket block.

what is the average life of a solid roller lifters? are they the hardest on the valvetrain?

thanks, josh
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Old 01-12-2010, 09:34 PM
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Why not build a big block? You seem to like two things that lead me here:

Big power with a long life. Honestly I wouldn't point you in any other direction. You also said "strait line acceleration."

Solid rollers as they heat up will slap the roller against the cam. I don't know if I can give you an exact lifespan on these things, but they're really not designed for something you're going to be putting 10-15k a year on as you say. I assume you don't want this motor apart 3 or 4 times a year either. Hydraulic rollers are fine but they're heavy and you may not like them for high RPM. Yet another reason to go big cube. I've heard of guys using a solid flat tappet cam for the street but I really wouldn't recommend it for as many miles per year as you're going to put on.

I would go with as many cubes as you can for this build if you really want to climb over 550 horse.

In all honesty if you can only afford to do this once, focus on a reliable motor. You can still get power but try to keep your R's a little lower. You don't need to spin a million RPM to make good power-

K
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Old 01-12-2010, 11:55 PM
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good point. but what is the added cost of build a big block for the same power? or does it start to cost less with a BBC when you keep thing relatively mild? will a 500hp big block give me 600lb/ft of torque? i will still use aftermarket heads, but can i, say, keep it in the 6000-6500 range to have more than "stock" BBC performance?

when i hear big block, the first thing i think of is 454. will a stock block handle the power while using forged internals?

do i want a tall deck or short deck?

that is a good idea, but my biggest concern is getting a good exhaust. this will be going in a 1988 camaro. i know they make third gen headers for BBC's, but getting a good size exhaust will be a challenge.

a BBC would be cool for a first motor build.

thanks again, josh
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Old 01-13-2010, 02:31 AM
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interesting thread josh. subscribed for more info

may i ask what kind of rearend and tranny you currently have/plan to use in that sweet 3rdgen? got a 89 formula myself
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Old 01-13-2010, 06:26 AM
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You can do a relatively mild 6" rod, forged flat-top piston 406 that would meet all your goals, (best to start with a Little M or similar block), a "tight lash" solid roller would be my choice, rather than a hydraulic roller. I wouldn't even consider a flat tappet anymore, solid or hydraulic.
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:11 AM
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I have no love what so ever for the small block Chevy, they bore me, sorry. But even though I have this opinion I still think if I were to have a car that a SBC was the "right" motor like a 57 Chevy or something like that I would go with the 383. I like torque, the 383 has it.
I have seen one of these motors do something that I will never forget. My buddy had a 65 Elcamino with a nice one in it. Just a super nice driver, no big deal. "Tri-Y" headers, 3:08 gears as I remember. It ran 13.90s in the quarter at over a hundred MPH. But one of the most amazing things I have ever seen is one time he did a brake stand burn out while in front of me as we were driving somewhere. I saw the smoke and, but it wasn't much smoke and I figured the tires were barely turning, YAWN. But the smoke wasn't coming off the rear tires, it was coming off the front because the car was literally being pushed on locked front tires skidding! NO KIDDING, the rear tires were bitting in like frigging tank tracks and pushing the locked front tires on the street! To this day I have never seen a car do that, when ever I hear 383 I think of that day. It impressed me!

Brian
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Old 01-13-2010, 04:14 PM
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Thanks for all the info. i plan on running a tko 600 and my rebuilt 10 bolt. it has all new axles, and 4.10 gears. from what i have read, a 10 bolt is strong enough as long as you don't get massive slicks and a t-brake.. i believe under a 1.60 60' in my car will be just fine.

i figure if i am going to buy an aftermarket block it will be a bbc. i must ask, now that you got me addicted.... what is the max stroke you can put in a GMPP BBC bare block? (looking at the one in the summit catalog)

more advise welcome!
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Old 01-13-2010, 07:15 PM
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another bi block benefit: you dont need an after market block for 600 horse...

K
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Old 01-13-2010, 11:08 PM
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Take a look at Pace performance. They sell GM performance products. You can get a 502 BBC alum heads almost ready to run. With a warantee.

Also check out Summit. They have about the same thing 502 bbc 502 hp and 567 ft lbs. According to the add in the new catalog it even comes with an 850 carb.

These are about 8200 bucks pluss shipping.

They also have a number of 383's.

It's hard to beat this stuff when building from scratch.
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Old 01-14-2010, 05:25 PM
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i guess i am getting ahead of my self... what is it like to drive with 450hp/450tq at the flywheel??? i am setting my standards high, but the most i have ever driven is a 1991 5.0 mustang... i guess my 327 had more power, but it had other issues... hence the need for a new motor...

I enjoy picking out the parts and building my own motor, this is my hobby, not just a need for a motor to get by.

Although i am on a "budget", but my budget will increase when i get a raise or a second job. i won't be getting parts until i am out of school and it is summertime again.
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Old 01-14-2010, 06:30 PM
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build a 406

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...ild/index.html
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:13 PM
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"Real honest 450 hp/500+tq" big block in a mid size car with a decent trans will truly set you back in the seat as well as make early history out of a set of tires. 450 hp at the rear wheels in a 2700 pound car is shorts filling if you haven't been around supercharged motors. When you own it and someone else is driving either one, it is heart attack time.

You should hang around some of the real hot rod guys. Most just love to impress the new guys with a short ride.
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentwings
...You should hang around some of the real hot rod guys. Most just love to impress the new guys with a short ride.
Having built an 11:1, roller cam, nitroused 427 Vega, I AM one of those guys,
ET calculator said 700 hp to the rear tires, 3300 lbs, 138~140 mph in the 1/4,
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