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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2005, 02:08 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC

I stand corrected ... I do recall the "385" Series now that you mention it.

I hadn't ever heard of the "FT" designation, despite being in Ford parts for 13 years ... "shows to go you" that you can learn something new every day I really enjoy that aspect of posting and reading in this group.
The FT Series is actually nothing more than a beefed FE. They (330-361-391) were introduced in the 1964 model run to replace the FORD Y-BLOCK 272HD and the LINCOLN Y-BLOCK derivatives 302 and 332ci. The FT Series was later replaced by the 370/429 for medium gasoline truck. You wouldn't be familiar with them unless the dealer you worked at was also a FORD HEAVY TRUCK DEALER (now gone).

Quote:
What is your background? You seem to know an awful lot about the blue-oval stuff.
I am an old fart and worked in my first FORD dealer in 1967.

Quote:
I still believe that the Cruise-O-Matic was the predecessor of the FMX, with minor differences in the valve body. It had the same aluminum bellhousing and a cast-iron case that attached with 4 bolts from the outside ... similar to a manual transmission.
The COM was a design progression of the older FORD-O-MATIC. It was introduced in 1958. Later upgraded in 1961. It featured a DUAL RANGE gear selection. It would start in either first or second depending on how the gearshift lever was positioned. The FOM was actually a three speed but with second gear start. If you wanted LOW, you had to position the gear selector in LOW from takeoff or fully open the throttle. The FMX (FORD-MERCURY-DUAL RANGE) was the final design culmination of all designs preceding it.



Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (Merc-Edsel-Linc-TBird) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2005, 02:29 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik

*********
Is it snowing up your way already?

Quote:
351 cube C and W, (as well as M and FE) are different engines, unique to their own series. Almost nothing interchanges. I won't rehash the differences.

Contrary to popular belief there are minimal parts commonality between the 351 cube C and M, though they look somewhat alike, as well as engine mounts and bellhousing patterns are different. That's why they called it the M. The C bolts up like a small block, the M bolts up like a big block.
I believe there is a lot more commonality than you give it credit for.

Quote:
As to whether small blocks 221>302 should be called Windsors.... (small blocks came first by 7 years).... that is controversial because that term Windsor came into common useage only after the C came out a year later in 70 to distinguish the 351s. Initially one engine series was built at the Windsor plant, the other series at the Cleveland plant. C and W.
The 221/260/289/302/255/351W are all members of the FORD Ninety-Degree Family. We all know why FORD had to designate W, C and M.

Quote:
Should a Boss 302 be called a Cleveland?
No.

Quote:
The small block Boss came first and the C series used a modified design of the Boss head. The Boss 351 (C) is a different animal than the B302.
The CLEVELAND had already been designed and tested when FORD engineering got the idea of adapting the head designs to the 302. It was to replace the 302 Tunnel Port heads used in 1968. The BOSS 351 engine was nothing more than a highly modified 351C 4V engine. It was released (as a package) due to racing sanctioning bodies allowing late increasing cubic inches in TRANS-AM. The BOSS 302 cylinder head (and intake) are dedicated pieces released only for the smaller 302. To actually put them on a CLV block would require a host of modification(s).
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2005, 02:51 PM
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Removed

Forget it ...

Last edited by 66GMC; 09-28-2005 at 08:36 PM.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2005, 11:48 PM
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[QUOTE=KULTULZ]

I believe there is a lot more commonality than you give it credit for.

The 221/260/289/302/255/351W are all members of the FORD Ninety-Degree Family. We all know why FORD had to designate W, C and M. [QUOTE]

*************
C and M = What common parts besides heads and cam? Not sure about distributor. M uses a 460 distributor.

I have never heard the term "FORD Ninety-Degree Family". Please explain.

Actually I find a lot of people who don't know about the W, C, M designations.

Smile when you say "Old Fart".
There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace.
thanks,
x
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-28-2005, 11:59 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC

Forget it ...
Why forget it? How else is information to be exchanged if you do not participate?

I too do not enjoy arguing. Leave that to the seventeen year old BOW-TIE BOYS...
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 12:21 AM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ

I believe there is a lot more commonality than you give it credit for.

The 221/260/289/302/255/351W are all members of the FORD Ninety-Degree Family. We all know why FORD had to designate W, C and M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik

*************
C and M = What common parts besides heads and cam? Not sure about distributor. M uses a 460 distributor.
Well, there you go. The C uses the 385 Series distributor also.

Quote:
I have never heard the term "FORD Ninety-Degree Family". Please explain.
The cylinders form an upright ninety-degree angle. I ***-u-me this is why FOMOCO identified the engine family as such.

Quote:
Actually I find a lot of people who don't know about the W, C, M designations.
Then they are not TRUE FORD BLUE...

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Smile when you say "Old Fart".
There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace.
The only fire this Old Fart has in his furnace is heartburn...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 12:21 AM
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About the "green dot" Ford transmissions:

One position locked the trans in 1.
One position auto shifted 1-2-3
One position started out in 2 and auto shifted to 3. for slippery weather starts.

The 1-2-1 shift did lock the trans into second, if you caught it before the governor shifted it. (depending on how far you over revved it.) Slowing down while in second, it would auto downshift to 1. If I remember correctly my 58 FE car did this also. The AOD trans having only 1, D, O on the shifter does this 1-D-1 lock into 2 gear also.

The C-4 had variations in valve bodies, but stuck to 2 basic shifter patterns. As described above and the other being the later models with
one position locked in 1.
one position 1-2 auto upshift
one position 1-2-3 auto shift

One rare valve body variation was an auto 1-2-3 upshift at @ 4800. If "locked" in 1, it would auto shift to 2 at 5800, like it or not.

Duke might have more precise info. I never "did" transmissions.

x
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xntrik
About the "green dot" Ford transmissions:

One position locked the trans in 1.
One position auto shifted 1-2-3
One position started out in 2 and auto shifted to 3. for slippery weather starts.

The 1-2-1 shift did lock the trans into second, if you caught it before the governor shifted it. (depending on how far you over revved it.) Slowing down while in second, it would auto downshift to 1. If I remember correctly my 58 FE car did this also. The AOD trans having only 1, D, O on the shifter does this 1-D-1 lock into 2 gear also.

The C-4 had variations in valve bodies, but stuck to 2 basic shifter patterns. As described above and the other being the later models with
one position locked in 1.
one position 1-2 auto upshift
one position 1-2-3 auto shift

One rare valve body variation was an auto 1-2-3 upshift at @ 4800. If "locked" in 1, it would auto shift to 2 at 5800, like it or not.

Duke might have more precise info. I never "did" transmissions.

x
Yup, OK, I'm sure you're right on this ... it's been a lot of years, and I was still just a stupid 17/18 year-old when I drove that car. I'm still reasonably sure that I remember that it would not downshift from 3-2 in the green dot position either.

I used to love that "auto downshift" (2-1) thing too ... that's how I used to get the "hot wheels" guys to race me.

I'd pull up alongside them going down the cruise circuit at around 25 or 30 MPH in 2nd gear ... stab the throttle to trigger the downshift (usually accompanied by a tire chirp for attention) and voila 3,000 RPM ... right in the Cleveland's power band That (1971) Cleveland-powered 66 Galaxie gave quite a few of them a bit of a surprise. Heh-heh-heh
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
Why forget it? How else is information to be exchanged if you do not participate?

I too do not enjoy arguing. Leave that to the seventeen year old BOW-TIE BOYS...
I was in a bad mood yesterday ... and getting a little testy.

Then I recalled my mom's advice:
"Keep your words tender and sweet ... you never know when you'll need to eat them ..." and removed my own post.

I agree that this has been a very informative thread, in fact ... perhaps all of this could be summarized and kept as a "sticky".

You say "old fart" ... but there's nothing like "being there when it happened", and being a valuable resource of information for those that weren't.

I sort of "followed my uncle's footsteps" too. He worked in Ford parts from about the time I was born (1957) until just a few years ago, when he retired.

I currently have an opportunity to "go back" to Ford ... I'm meeting with the dealer principal at lunch today to discuss it. I'm feeling like I could use a change after working in the same NAPA store (2 different owners) for the last 13 years. As I'm sure you know, it seems the only way to get a raise in this business is to make a move.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 04:51 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
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-DESCRIPTION of LINCOLN TURBO-DRIVE AND TWIN TURBO-DRIVE TRANSMISSIONS-

This shop manual (1958 LINC) shows the operating characteristics of both the three speed TURBO-DRIVE (heavier version of the FORD FORD-O-MATIC) and the replacing three speed TWIN-TURBO-DRIVE (heavier version of the FORD CRUISE-O-MATIC).

It shows how each operated and shifted for maximum performance.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 05:43 PM
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I should compile the info and request that Jon make a sticky of it, or post it in the FAQs. I'll be sure to post it for your approval, I don't know a whole lot about the Blue Oval, but I sure would drive one over foregin most-anything any day of the week!
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 06:33 PM
aka Duke of URL
 
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I have a complete page around here somewheres that fully describes the development of the FOM, COM and FMX (along with LINC/MERC derivatives).

There is a lot of misinformation out there on this series of transmissions.

There was also a true two speed FOM introduced in 1959 and replaced by the C4. It was for economy/low trim level use.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 07:34 PM
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I just figured I'd add this. There has been multiple mention of big block vs. small block. This quote was taken from a site that covers most Ford engines pretty well.

Quote:
The 351C, 351M, 351W, and all other small blocks share the same bore spacing and cylinder head bolt pattern.
To the best of my knowledge the bore spacing and head bolt pattern designates Windsors and Clevelands as 'small blocks'. Ford's other engine families do not share that same characteristic. Below is a link to where I got that particular quote from.

http://phystutor.tripod.com/stang/engines/engines.html
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-29-2005, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KULTULZ
Well, there you go. The C uses the 385 Series distributor also.

The cylinders form an upright ninety-degree angle. I ***-u-me this is why FOMOCO identified the engine family as such.

Then they are not TRUE FORD BLUE...

The only fire this Old Fart has in his furnace is heartburn...
*****
Hey Old Fart,

Thanks on the distributor, You are correct. I remember it now. same as 460. ran it on the run-in machine. yep. haven't machined and assembled a C since 99.

All the Ford V-8s after the flatheads were at a direct 90* angle and directly above the crank centerline. So are the general's. Remember the flatty V-8 was 90* vee, but NOT centered over the crank centerline... Ford's early attempt for the effect to be like "offset piston pins" in later engines. Ya wierd by today's standards.

LOL, actually found a 350 chevy block like that back in 98. It was about a mid 70s, and when I went to bore it the cylinders were all offset ONLY about .080 to one side/ both banks.... but it had run 100,000 miles like that. Too far to square it up..... gave it away to some guys, and then they had me bore it offcenter..... and they built it into a hobby stock, and ran the crap out of it 6800 rpm for 2 years, and it ran great....... go figure.

Hey thanks for the info all you guys, I save all those links.

Always kinda missed that 58 Fairlane 500 4 dr ht. FE. It would honk the tires shifting into second. NOt fast in 62, but a tire chirper. I was an "early driver" in 62... .... which brings up another story.........lol

thanks again.
x

Also.... way back in # 3 I said that (quote) "GENERALLY SPEAKING the C is considered a small block....because of the way stuff bolts on." because he was wanting an easy way to determine what would fit in the existing hole.

Last edited by xntrik; 09-30-2005 at 12:05 AM.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-30-2005, 02:12 AM
aka Duke of URL
 
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Below is one of many examples of why I never say never concerning FOMOCO. There is (was) no set of fixed rules.

Quote:
The 400 FMX block is a special version of the standard Ford 400 block. What makes it different is that most 400ís have the standard Ford big block (370/429/460) bellhousing bolt pattern and a unique motor mount pattern. However, in 1973 only, Ford produced a special version of the 400 with a small block bellhousing bolt pattern and dual motor mounts.


Now before all you BOWTIE BOYS jump on your Stovebolt band wagons, the reason FORD had so many design deviances is the multi-use of engines/transmissions in their complete line (FORD-LINC-MERC) whereas GM had different power in their different car lines. So it is akin to comparing apples and oranges.

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