Hi folks,
I have purchased a set of 1970 cleveland 4v heads, open chamber (better for pump gas), and am trying to decide a game plan for a motor build. I was contemplating either building
1. a strong 351 cleveland w/4 bolt mains but it seems that the blocks are prone to cracking, need serious oiling mods to live, and are darn expensive, including parts.
2. a 351 clevor, with forged 3.5 in stroke crank and stock length forged rods, and either KB or TRW clevor pistons, topped off with a clevor manifold from price motorsports. Or, as was suggested in a previous post, use a 3.85 in stroke windsor crank, 289 length rods, and boss 302 style pistons (yielding ~393 cubes?).
Is there any other options available, or is either of these better? Any thoughts are appreciated, I have done most of my homework but am trying to uncover any subtle advantages to either. Either of this setups should yield alot of horsepower for my '78 2-dr fairmont (currently has built 302, can we say real sleeper?)
Thanks again.
The stock Cleveland block will be cheaper, how much money you got.:mwink:
Some junkyard scouting/Buy @ Sell luck might score you a good used block, the oiling mod can be done with a drill, a tap and a drilled plug for the restrictor...no rocket science involved. Haven't seen to many cracked blocks but I have seen a few cracked factory forged cranks. Usually because they have been beat on...severely.
Maybe some of our Aussie friends could send us Cleveland fans in the Northern hemisphere some good used castings by boat, they are getting scarce up here.
While I agree about oiling mods for extended high rpms, I don't agree with the cracking. I've got 6 Clevelands and none are cracked and have has at least that many more in the past,no cracks. You may be confusing the early 400s that had that problem with the Cleveland, although they appear similar a 400/351M is not a Cleveland in most Ford guys mind.
I've been entertaining the same build,I have also been told by a couple different people that oiling is a problem on the 351 Clev bottom end,I was also told that 4v heads flowed to much,but threw more research I found by increasing the displacement,stroke,It makes for one sweet package,wish I could say first hand.
As a follow up,
Do you know where I could buy the oil restrictor kit for a cleveland, and what is a good source for a block? I have found them online (DSC motorsports or ebay, around $200-300, worn standard bore) but shipping is rather expensive.
Also, is it possible to stroke a 351 cleveland? I have heard that a 3.85 in stroke crank, 5.955 in rods, and a 1.3 in compression height piston makes 393 ci, and since I am beefing up the bottom end I figure why not get more cubic inches.
You guys truly are a wealth of info.
Thanks again.
Aren't the newer 5.8/Windsors roller? They must be lighter anyway,and you get to keep the small bell housing and mounts if that matters. I did ride in a 1/2 ton 400 truck with 4v C heads and a 280 comp cam and it was impressive for the money he had in it.
I would use a late model 5.8 roller block. An earlier block can be modified by adapting the inexpensive roller kit available from Ford Racing. Then you can use all the cheap HP cams from the 5.0.
The cleveland heads will bolt on if you drill all the water passage holes. The main problem is a shortage of intake manifolds. The last time I checked there was one small company making an intake for the combination of Cleveland heads on a Windsor block. .
Low speed velocity is a problem with the 4V heads. The ports are so huge that the intake flow is lazy at low RPM. Restrictor plates used to be available when this engine was commonly hot rodded. Running 4.56 gears helps this some.
The best head for the street is the 2V head. These work well at all RPMs.
Closed chamber heads with flat top pistons of reasonable compression increase the quench and increase detonation resistence. All the newer engines have strong quench for swirl.
Personaly I would stick to the W series. Better W heads are available that makes the stock type C heads look poor.
Closed chamber heads with flat top pistons of reasonable compression increase the quench and increase detonation resistence. All the newer engines have strong quench for swirl.
Personaly I would stick to the W series. Better W heads are available that makes the stock type C heads look poor.
Very true. The 4 barrel open chamber cleveland heads cam really flow at high lifts. People used these engines in all kinds of race cars in the 70s and early 80s until the after market availability of high quality aluminum windsor heads that will flow at high lifts and still maintain good velocity at lower lifts. These heads produce just as much power and have a much better and flatter power band.
I've done that on a race engine that I took apart every once in a while to freshing up. The only difficult part is port matching the assembly of the 5 parts and gaskets. I tried this a couple of times before I worked out this proceedure that gave me a good seal every time.
What I did is first mock up the assembly, then mark the location of the plates to intake and head with machinist blue and a scribe. I then gasket matched the plate to the head, then I matched the plate to the intake. Once I had everything matched so it would flow, I siliconed the plate to the intake(making sure the surfaces were sanded to provide a clean surface)
Then I mounted the intake /plate assembly to the heads, using the big felpro intake gasket, using silicone around the water passages.
KULTULZ - I really like the cars on your gallery! :thumbup:
You know, you really ought to take care of your antique chicken and not do anything to make it sore. I know that mine gets to go out on outings but I always keep an eye on it because it always wants to stick it's head in strange but dangerous dark places where it could encounter something that would make it sore or worse put it out of comission. Just a warning..
Have you seen the recent articles about the real Boss 302 and the Tunnel Port ?
They recently fully worked them and developed about 12 % more horsepower than Joe Sherman does with a regular old 302 with ported factory iron '65 heads and moderate hydraulic flat tappet cam. The Boss and Tunnel had to turn 800+ more rpm make that HP with radical solid cams.
Seems like a modern SBF "W" head would be superior in every way. :thumbup:
Have you seen the recent articles about the real Boss 302 and the Tunnel Port ?
They recently fully worked them and developed about 12 % more horsepower than Joe Sherman does with a regular old 302 with ported factory iron '65 heads and moderate hydraulic flat tappet cam. The Boss and Tunnel had to turn 800+ more rpm make that HP with radical solid cams.
Seems like a modern SBF "W" head would be superior in every way. :thumbup:
You are right about that. I ran the heads in the old days before after market heads. I found that the 2 barrel heads were best ported. The 4 V heads ported made more HP but in a very narrow power band like from 6-8000 RPM. Trying to make them make good torque from 3K to 6K was futile.
the 351w bottom end is nearly bullet proof. cant say that for the cleveland. there are more parts available than the clev.
parts are cheaper for the w.
the 4v heads are neat for wind tunnel testing, but the real power is the 2v heads.
there are a few companies making the 302/351 intake swap kits to mount the 302/351w intakes on the 351c heads.
properly ported 351c heads are cheap, and run real good. they make great power.
yes there are 351w aftermarket heads that make good power also, and i am not saying anything bad about them, but the c heads work real good for cheap. plus people scratch their heads tryin to figure out what you have going on under the hood..lol
I agree the Cleveland blocks have oiling problems that make them harder to work with but they can be used if you happen to find one of the 4 bolt main blocks cheap and want to use it. Otherwise the W blocks are cheaper to use and better. The W block with a offset ground M crank can make 427+ cubic inches and will live making over 900 HP on nitrous and even more on a turbo. The 4 bolt main Ford Racing blocks will stay together making more than twice that. The 3000 pound turbo pro cars are running in the mid 7s at 220+.
Cleveland heads can be used but are lots of work when aluminum after market heads are easy and make gobs of power and get cheaper every day.
The cleveland parts are getting more pricey and harder to find.
IIGW said:
i have had several clevors.
the 351w bottom end is nearly bullet proof. cant say that for the cleveland. there are more parts available than the clev.
parts are cheaper for the w.
the 4v heads are neat for wind tunnel testing, but the real power is the 2v heads.
there are a few companies making the 302/351 intake swap kits to mount the 302/351w intakes on the 351c heads.
properly ported 351c heads are cheap, and run real good. they make great power.
yes there are 351w aftermarket heads that make good power also, and i am not saying anything bad about them, but the c heads work real good for cheap. plus people scratch their heads tryin to figure out what you have going on under the hood..lol
I've done that on a race engine that I took apart every once in a while to freshing up. The only difficult part is port matching the assembly of the 5 parts and gaskets. I tried this a couple of times before I worked out this proceedure that gave me a good seal every time.
What I did is first mock up the assembly, then mark the location of the plates to intake and head with machinist blue and a scribe. I then gasket matched the plate to the head, then I matched the plate to the intake. Once I had everything matched so it would flow, I siliconed the plate to the intake(making sure the surfaces were sanded to provide a clean surface)
Then I mounted the intake /plate assembly to the heads, using the big felpro intake gasket, using silicone around the water passages.
Interesting. Were these the PMS plates? The plate runners are supposed to be transitioned between the CLV head port and the WDR intake port. What type of silicone did you use and were there any problems?
KULTULZ -
You know, you really ought to take care of your antique chicken and not do anything to make it sore. I know that mine gets to go out on outings but I always keep an eye on it because it always wants to stick it's head in strange but dangerous dark places where it could encounter something that would make it sore or worse put it out of comission. Just a warning..
OMG- who is trolling up these old threads--> this is the oiling solution i use, but i just fabbed up the lines myself. run the line from the oil boss above the oil filter to the rear oil pressure switch port from the rear of the block. that way you get oil pressure from both sides of the block.
Hi folks,
I have purchased a set of 1970 cleveland 4v heads, open chamber (better for pump gas), and am trying to decide a game plan for a motor build. I was contemplating either building
1. a strong 351 cleveland w/4 bolt mains but it seems that the blocks are prone to cracking, need serious oiling mods to live, and are darn expensive, including parts.
2. a 351 clevor, with forged 3.5 in stroke crank and stock length forged rods, and either KB or TRW clevor pistons, topped off with a clevor manifold from price motorsports. Or, as was suggested in a previous post, use a 3.85 in stroke windsor crank, 289 length rods, and boss 302 style pistons (yielding ~393 cubes?).
Is there any other options available, or is either of these better? Any thoughts are appreciated, I have done most of my homework but am trying to uncover any subtle advantages to either. Either of this setups should yield alot of horsepower for my '78 2-dr fairmont (currently has built 302, can we say real sleeper?)
Thanks again.
i was diggin around and found this thread on the web. i used a google search. there is another thread, http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106289&goto=newpost that i dug up also. there is no problem with info, old or new. some people say bad things about the clevor motor. "dont mess with it, get regular aftermarket heads.." there are several poeple making brand new aluminum heads, even edelbrock makes heads now. there is a company that sells a super reliable dynoed 690 hp clevor, google it youll find it.
my engine block is a '69, but im guessing since i "dredged" to find that year block that its no good or too old also..
anyways, enough crying. edelbrock makes a rpm intake and heads for the clevor, and there are other companies too.
even on ebay you can find a supplier of aluminum heads also.
depending on what you are building, and your plans, the cleveland heads are sweet. i havent tried the new aluminum heads, but i am gettin the itch to try some.
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