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Old 02-24-2011, 06:28 AM
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351W in 31 model a coupe

First let me say thanks for taking the time to read this post. I'm new at hot rodding so Thanks Again to all that share their knowledge and expertise with this newbie.

I have a 31 model A that I want to put a 351w in. I'm in the planning stages so I have a real need for some insight into making this work. Some of my first concerns are, will it fit? How far back would the firewall need recessed? What about the steering box? Headers? Fan on motor or radiator?

So any tips, tricks or just plain down right advice would be helpful and appreciated!

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Old 02-24-2011, 09:01 AM
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I don't have a 351W but a 302/5.0 in a '31 which for all intent, is exactly the same except a bit wider and higher. It is not a really difficult job, but can be involved. Though mine is a Brookville repro body and a TCI chassis, you will need about the same changes. You can get by with a 3" recessed firewall, but a 5" gives you more finger room. Steering - that depends on whether you use IFS or solid front axle. A 32" IDIDIT tilt column will work, but don't install until the exhaust is at least mocked up. Headers - FF1 Sandersons. I use a Cooling Components fan on a Walker radiator, but do have enough room for a mechanical as my engine is well back from usual. Transmission - a C4. You can use a standard - but in my case, big feet are in the way plus limited frame space with a power brake installation. As far as tips - ask me something specific and we can go from there

Here's some photos seen several times here of my installation -









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Old 02-24-2011, 09:46 AM
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Irelands child has pretty much covered the SBF in a early Ford thing.

SIZE matters ... and every inch counts when installing a later V8 in a early Ford.

I am not a Ford in a Ford type of guy ... but IF I were to install a SBF in a early Ford, I believe I would install a 302 SBF and then make it a 347 cubic inch Ford. There are quite a few Mustangs around in my area that used a 5.0 block and then made it a 347.

A SBC fits better in a early Ford







The SBC is shorter and smaller in physical size ...
You can see I only have 1 inch set back in my firewall ... and plenty of room in the front for a LARGE mechanical fan. IF I had chose to run a small point type distributor ... I would not have had to cut the firewall at all,

Here is a photo journal mostly about the build of my coupe. You MIGHT find a few photos interesting ... because Model A's and 32 Ford share a lot of the same problems and issues during construction.

DEUCE ... Moderator
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:25 AM
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I have never liked the engine intrusion on the interior. Makes for limited pedal arrangement and being 6' tall leg room is nill.

The last one was a fenderless highboy 29 with a 302. Extended the frame 4 in. and still had length issues.

For my own early Fords, I use GM engines. I know "belly button" cars etc. But Hey, they fit. Much better.
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Old 02-24-2011, 10:27 AM
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Deuce - haven't you and I had this discussion 6-8 times over the past few years ??

http://www.carnut.com/specs/engdim.html

The most interesting thing - and the first time I saw it was how much more a Chebbie weighs the the SB Ford.

The 351W - exactly the same length as a 302/5.0L, ~50 pounds heavier, about an inch taller and an inch and a half wider. The front cover determines the final length - much shorter water pump. Early are about 2" longer the the later versions.

I would probably prefer the 331 cid based on an OEM 302 rather then the 347. The 347 has some longevity problems in a stock (OEM) based block. A Ford Racing block - go for it.

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Old 02-24-2011, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBCRMAN@aol.com
Makes for limited pedal arrangement and being 6' tall leg room is nill.
I gotcha by 4" (6'4") so do know all about leg room
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Old 02-24-2011, 12:10 PM
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I've seen one of the chassis makers actually make a frame that had a 3" stretch between thee firewall and front end. Maybe I should consider something like that? Then again I haven't seen anyone that makes a hood 3" longer and here in PA there has to be a hood covering the engine.

Irelands Child you say your are 6'4", could you take a 500mile trip with the 3" recessed firewall?? Also I'm planning a manual trans, does the 3" recess limit the area so bad that someone with a size 10 shoe will have problems?
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golferjc
I've seen one of the chassis makers actually make a frame that had a 3" stretch between thee firewall and front end. Maybe I should consider something like that? Then again I haven't seen anyone that makes a hood 3" longer and here in PA there has to be a hood covering the engine.

Irelands Child you say your are 6'4", could you take a 500mile trip with the 3" recessed firewall?? Also I'm planning a manual trans, does the 3" recess limit the area so bad that someone with a size 10 shoe will have problems?

OK - 3" stretch to the frame adds another dimension especially if you are running fenders and running boards - nothing in front of the firewall fits without significant mods. The hood is the easiest part as Rootleib will custom make one to your dimensions

With a 3" recess a 500 mile trip in a roadster is long but I believe a coupe has 3-4 more inches of interior length, but best check that. Just plan on stopping and letting out the kinks. Mine has a 5 inch recess and while it's tight, I am reasonably comfortable in my upholstered bomber seats. Shoe size - I only wish I had a 10. My 12's are tight. There are a couple of things you can do with the brake pedal (bend) and gas pedal that will open up some room, but that is dependant on where you locate the steering column also.

A manual transmission get foot room crowded with the extra pedal, but I have seen it done. I considered manual - until I saw how little room I had chassis wise. Cross members, PB diaphragms, exhaust, wiring and plumbing all take up room. A couple more photos to give you an idea of space limitations.







This, above photos before I added the 'H' pipe which moved the mufflers back about a foot

A C4 auto is about the size of a normal 4 spd.

The interior photo is before I changed to the bomber seats, gaining 5-6":



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Old 02-24-2011, 01:29 PM
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351w in a 31 model A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
Irelands child has pretty much covered the SBF in a early Ford thing.

SIZE matters ... and every inch counts when installing a later V8 in a early Ford.

I am not a Ford in a Ford type of guy ... but IF I were to install a SBF in a early Ford, I believe I would install a 302 SBF and then make it a 347 cubic inch Ford. There are quite a few Mustangs around in my area that used a 5.0 block and then made it a 347.

A SBC fits better in a early Ford







The SBC is shorter and smaller in physical size ...
You can see I only have 1 inch set back in my firewall ... and plenty of room in the front for a LARGE mechanical fan. IF I had chose to run a small point type distributor ... I would not have had to cut the firewall at all,

Here is a photo journal mostly about the build of my coupe. You MIGHT find a few photos interesting ... because Model A's and 32 Ford share a lot of the same problems and issues during construction.

DEUCE ... Moderator
DEUCE I do believe a 302 is 2" less in width at it's widest point than a SBC and shorter for sure, as Dave said. I don't know about the 351, but I have both a 302 and a SBC sitting in my shop, this had come up on another thread, two of us had both, so we went and measured the engines, came up with the same, SBF smaller.

Not that I would take sides, but the ford is better.

Bob
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Old 02-24-2011, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
Deuce - haven't you and I had this discussion 6-8 times over the past few years ??
But I thought we had agreed to ....
DISAGREE


Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child
The 351W - exactly the same length as a 302/5.0L, ~50 pounds heavier, about an inch taller and an inch and a half wider.
But a inch taller and 1.5 inches wider makes it a LOT TIGHTER fit

Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
DEUCE I do believe a 302 is 2" less in width at it's widest point than a SBC and shorter for sure, as Dave said.


Not that I would take sides, but the ford is better.
NOT according to this web site ...
http://www.carnut.com/specs/engdim.html posted by Dave ...

the SBF is 2 inches LONGER than the SBC with the SBC short water pump and the SBC is still shorter by a little bit with the SBC LONG water pump ( that nobody ever uses in a Hot Rod.

I will not argue over the which is best ( Ford verus Chevrolet ) ... because neither of us are going to change the others mind
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:26 PM
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351

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
But I thought we had agreed to ....
DISAGREE




But a inch taller and 1.5 inches wider makes it a LOT TIGHTER fit



NOT according to this web site ...
http://www.carnut.com/specs/engdim.html posted by Dave ...

the SBF is 2 inches LONGER than the SBC with the SBC short water pump and the SBC is still shorter by a little bit with the SBC LONG water pump ( that nobody ever uses in a Hot Rod.

I will not argue over the which is best ( Ford verus Chevrolet ) ... because neither of us are going to change the others mind
The 302 is .500 or 1/2 inch longer than the SBC with short WP
The SBC is .880 longer than the 302 when the SBC has a long WP.
But that's a SBF with a stock pump, if you use one of the two SVO or Ford racing pumps, you can gain !.5" or !.750" which would make it shorter on the A length. But if you buy a Snow White SBF short pump, it is 2" shorter than stock and would be the same at the b length.
The other I was just kidding.

I do thank you for that page, I made a copy right away it can come in handy.

Bob
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Old 02-24-2011, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35terraplane
The other I was just kidding.

I do thank you for that page, I made a copy right away it can come in handy.

Bob
Yes ...it is all KOOL here ...
Everyone has their own preferences ...
Chevrolet/Ford/Mopar/Pontiac/ect.

I even have a friend who has a NEON ... that makes about 550 HP on the turbo and runs in the high 10's in a 1/4 of a mile.



Thank Dave for the page ... he was the original poster in this thread
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
But I thought we had agreed to ....
DISAGREE





I will not argue over the which is best ( Ford verus Chevrolet ) ... because neither of us are going to change the others mind

Yep - we did, but it is still fun to needle occasionally

And that old subject as to which is better - well, I like Glenmorangie single malt and John Jameson Irish neither of which you probably wont touch

Dave w
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Old 02-24-2011, 03:52 PM
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351w

Thanks Dave good info to have.

Bob
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Old 02-24-2011, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child

And that old subject as to which is better - well, I like Glenmorangie single malt and John Jameson Irish neither of which you probably wont touch

Dave w
I never was much on any alcohol or whiskey ...



But as a Southern man ... I prefer Jack Daniels



But that is WHY they make Chocolate and Vanilla
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