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-   -   351W SBF rookie build (http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/351w-sbf-rookie-build-226078.html)

celamb89 11-14-2012 09:30 AM

351W SBF rookie build
 
Hi everyone,

After several years of having the project stopped due to several problems I picked up the '71 mustang project... I'm now rebuilding the 351w sbf and have a couple of questions, hopefully some of you can chime in...

My dad purchased some parts several years ago, since he passed away I picked up where he left off... The motor is currently being taken apart and the time to acquire the needed parts is approaching...

Current parts:
1x Chet herbert Solid Roller camshaft (.510 lift x 240 duration)
1x Set of solid roller vertical bar lifters
1x true roller timing chain

Wishlist:
1x set of KB Performance Pistons, Piston Dia.: 4.030'', Flat Top, 2-Valve Reliefs, Neutral
1x set of Moly rings
1x set of 350 open pressure vale springs
Ported cast heads
1x set of chrome moly 5/16 Std. Ford 351w
1x set of 1.6, 3/8 SBF Magnum Roller Rockers
1x set of mahle strengthen guide plates
1x edelbrock RPM air gap intake manifold
1x edelbrock 750cfm carb

Any tips, sugestions, comments are more than welcome... The car will be a street performance car, I want to be able to drive it around but pack a punch.... The other idea was stroking it to a 393... I would love to cut some costs, Im currently paying my college loan and Im pretty short...

vinniekq2 11-14-2012 09:55 AM

you have a good start. make sure you have enough cash before you start the build.figure your cost,then double that and add 10%,then start

Mr. P-Body 11-14-2012 10:48 AM

Interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen a '71 with a 351W in it. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't stock, just all the ones I've seen were Clevelands. Could it be a 302?

What are the casting numbers on the heads? Are the exhaust valves on the same "plane" as the intakes or "slanted" as compared? Is the thermostat in the intake or the block?

I would advise against the KB pistons (unless you're refering to the "Icon" forgings). They're known for ring gap issues and can cause failure if not exactly right. For similar or slightly more money, you can have forged pistons. Speed Pro are a bit heavy, but tough and "right" for the application. They use the stock ring pack, so good moly rings are relatively cheap.

After you answer the above questioins regarding the identity (not questioning your statement, just being thorough) of the engine, we can make more specific recommendations to get to a certain point.

Jim

celamb89 11-14-2012 11:36 AM

I've checked a couple of times for the block, everybody says it should be the cleveland, but I checked a couple of times... checked the valve covers and water intake I remember it being a windsor... Im going to the shop where the motor is this afternoon and I'll double check to be 100% sure...

About the pistons, I've read that they can be good if tuned in right and Hypereutectic pistons have the advantage of cold starts but I did read they can blow up if not tuned in exactly as they should... Every time i looked at forged pistons the prices rocketed but I'll look at the speed pro forged pistons..

About the money, I have around 1200 dlls to spend this Christmas, a little piggy bank I've been saving.. I'm thinking I can go easy on the labor cash as they can go slow as well, I talked to the owner and he said as long as its not just sitting its alright with him, he can go slow no problem

celamb89 11-14-2012 11:41 AM

Do you think these would be better than the KB pistons? Flat top KB Hypereutectic pistons vs Speed pro forged dish pistons?

Seems the KB would give better compression but he forged will take a better beating

peed-Pro Powerforged Ford Pistons
351W Stock-Type Piston, .030'' Overbore
Piston Dia.: 4.030''
Piston Top: -13.2cc Dish

Irelands child 11-14-2012 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. P-Body (Post 1611140)
Interesting. I don't believe I've ever seen a '71 with a 351W in it. Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't stock, just all the ones I've seen were Clevelands. Could it be a 302?


Jim


Most of what I've seen are indeed a 351 'C', but a '71 Mustang did have a 'W' as well.

Then - what are these?
Ported cast heads - if you mean stock heads, unless they are DO0E (fair, but usually worn out) or a later GT40 or GT40P are not worth what will be needed to recondition when a set of aluminum or even Dart cast iron will be less money.

1x set of chrome moly 5/16 Std. Ford 351w - - ???

Too many good hydraulic lifter camshafts available to fool around a solid lifter cam, with you indicating that you are an almost newbie or are at least paying others to do the work on the engine. Between the shock towers, power brake/master cylinders, a couple of brackets, make valve adjustment a real project

There are several books on AMAZON that will give you a fair rundown of what you can do - I've been fooling around with SB Ford engines for many years and still use a couple for reference as Ford made many parts, virtually identical, but with minor variations, good and bad.

hcompton 11-14-2012 12:00 PM

mark and lable all the part like rods and valves when taking it apart. you never know when you may need to use something you never thought you were going to need. Zip lock bags with the white labels so you can sharpy right onto the bag whats inside. Also keep all of the bolts dont loose or toss them out. But do buy a bolt kit from jegs or ebay and replace them. You just never know when your going to need that random bolt. Buy gaskets in master engine/complete sets.

KISS method = Keep It Simple Stupid, is the method of choice. Make sure you have a good car that is worthy of a strong engine good brakes and tires. build the engine during the day dream of hp numbers at night. In other words dont go for broke on the engine when the budget is not going to allow $10K worth of upgrades before you can put big power to the ground.

Im not a ford guy but usally stock style cast pistons will do the trick. Also dump the roller rockers and just use some stock heads unless you can find a deal somewhere. you can probably find the manifold on ebay rpm or rpm air gap will work ok the regular rpm may even be better if you plan to drive in cold climate or heavy traffic.

You should be able to buy a complete engine rebuild kit with the rings and pistons included.

Have inspected the bore does it have any type of lip at the top. Not carbon but iron that has been worn away. you should see some unless its freshly bored or low miles. If so it will need to be bored and honed for new pistons. if that is the case wait to buy pistons until you speak with the machine shop. Always bring a bare block to the machine shop its cheaper and easy to take apart and also be sure to search out the best price for the bore job not all machine shops are equal and neither is there work. Best to shop around a little and talk to ppl that have had some work done in yur area.

Sorry for the long post hope it helps.

celamb89 11-14-2012 01:33 PM

thanks
 
First, thanks to everyone for helping out... Every comment gives me info to work with...

Quote:

There are several books on AMAZON that will give you a fair rundown of what you can do - I've been fooling around with SB Ford engines for many years and still use a couple for reference as Ford made many parts, virtually identical, but with minor variations, good and bad.
Irelands child I'll be getting a book from amazon, seems like the right place to start... The solid roller camshaft and lifters were parts that I already had and dont want to spend the money again, my dad purchased them several years ago...


hcompton, why would you advice to dump the roller rockers? The KISS method seems perfect! I'll look in to stock dish cast piston kits, hopefully they'll run cheaper, I just dont want to put something in the motor I'l want replaced later on (performance wise)

I just called dougherbert performance and got the real numbers for the cam, its bigger that i had thought! Specs:

Solid Roller Camshaft
.605 lift
240 duration
110 lobe center
16 intake 18 exhaust
2500-6500rpm

vinniekq2 11-14-2012 01:59 PM

big cam for a beginner.get your budget together and go a couple sizes smaller for the camshaft...

hcompton 11-14-2012 07:11 PM

You can usally buy stock style cast pistons in a couple of differnet shapes for about the same price. Try to find some cheap pistons that will give a good cr for some good power.

One main factor alot of ppl over look with roller rockers you can put then on in a few hours in the driveway. Once the car is running and it hasnt hurt your pocket too bad then go for it later on when you got the coin. Unless its the cheapest rocker for your cam. Aka its high rpm or high lift. Your appears to be both. For chevy you can buy cheap stamp steel rockers that are really strong. A nother bonus may be if the stock style rockers are 1.5 this will help with cam break in and initial tuning. Then the 1.6 rockers can go on once your get the car dailed in and it stops scaring you.

Sometimes the motor builds get expensive best to hold a few bucks in reserve. But i could be wrong im not up on the fords sep the 80/90's 302 since i had a few of them.

celamb89 11-15-2012 06:13 AM

You're right it is a big can for a beginner hopefully with all the help Ill be able to make the right calls.

Steel Roller rockers are 167 which isn't to bad, since the cam is a high lift high rol as you said hcompton I believe they are going in.. But breaking the motor in with the stock 1.5 sounds good then I can drop the rollers in...

Irelands child 11-15-2012 06:54 AM

Be REAL careful with any lift over ~.510 on a Ford, especially with stock type heads. A .604 lift WILL NOT work without being very careful in your piston selection.

Oh and the stock rocker arms are 1.6, not 1.5 with 1.7 being the option.

You have no gain by using steel roller tip rockers which retain the sliding fulcrum. You may also get into push rod length problems whereas the standard sliding tip aren't so fussy as to where they land on the valve tip

celamb89 11-15-2012 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Irelands child (Post 1611457)
Be REAL careful with any lift over ~.510 on a Ford, especially with stock type heads. A .604 lift WILL NOT work without being very careful in your piston selection.

Oh and the stock rocker arms are 1.6, not 1.5 with 1.7 being the option.

You have no gain by using steel roller tip rockers which retain the sliding fulcrum. You may also get into push rod length problems whereas the standard sliding tip aren't so fussy as to where they land on the valve tip

What piston Would you recommend? Would kb hypers work? Or by piston selection do you mean triple measure everything?

I was also looking in to the aluminum scorpion roller rockers, I'll see what u can work in tote budget. I might break the project in 2, first build the inside then et the manifold, carb and headers. That will give me some breading time.

mustang 671 11-15-2012 01:50 PM

hey - congrats on the 351w build . i have the same block and love it.

about the kb hyper pistons - i have really really looked into a piston before choosing one. i choose the exact same piston as yopu are looking at over a more expensive trw forget piston i had already bought . i had seen the evidence on both sides and sold the trw forged ones and went with kb hypers. ( it wasnt for the money obviously) im into £10k with just my engine.

alot of people will give their opinions on the forged versus hypers. make you own opinion and dont take to much from it ( and me ) . read this below

Hypereutectic pistons are used in some original equipment engines. They are favored because of reduced scuffing, improved power, fuel economy and emissions.

Hypereutectic 390 refers to a unique aluminum piston alloy that contains dissolved and free silicon. The material can be T6 heat treated to high strength and stiffness. Non-heat treated 390 hypereutectic alloy aluminum has slightly less strength than conventionally cast F-132 aluminum.

With this in mind, we caution the reader about the use of non-T6 heat treated O.E. design hypereutectic pistons for high performance. Silvolite and others do make replacement-type hypereutectic pistons that are worthwhile for stock replacement applications. Original equipment design is almost never suitable for performance applications.

The KB line of hypereutectic pistons were designed around the 390 alloy. The result is a high performance part intended to give the performance engine builder access to the latest in piston technology.

Forgings have long been the mainstay of the performance business and did well in the big cubic inch engines of the 60ís. Now, with focus on peak cylinder pressure timing, ring sealing dynamics, cylinder air tumble and swirl, combustion chamber science, and extended RPM ranges, we need to consider some new piston options.

The KB T6 hypereutectics are considerably different than the forgings. The KB pistons have shown improvement in power, fuel economy, cylinder sealing, service life, and cost effectiveness. The reduced thermal expansion rate allows the piston to be run with reduced clearance. A tight piston is less likely to rock, make noise, and burn oil. A rocking piston wears rings and increases blow-bye. The close fit of the KB piston allows the piston rings to truly seal, minimizing blow-by.

The design flexibility enjoyed by the KB series of pistons has an advantage over present day forging practices. The die for a forged piston must be designed so it can be easily removed. This limitation makes it difficult to make a light weight piston without sacrificing strength.

The KB pistons' utilization of the permanent mold with multiple die parts allows undercut areas above the pin hole and material distribution in the skirt area that stiffen the entire piston unit. The forged piston requires thick skirts to achieve comparable piston rigidity. A rigid piston rocks less in the cylinder and improves ring seal.

The forged pistons' thick skirts add weight. The design of KB pistons gives us the option to build the lightest pistons on the market.

Some current KB pistons are not super light for several reasons. If the piston is to be used as a stock replacement, more than a 10% weight reduction will mandate that the engine be re-balanced.

Common sense suggests that the introduction of a new product be extra strong at the initial release. As the product becomes accepted, weight reductions are scheduled as regular product upgrades, as justified with actual race testing.

There will always be a market for custom forged pistons. Small runs of forgings are more economical than small runs of permanent mold pistons because of the complexity of permanent mold tooling. Where quantities justify, expect to see future KB pistons developed that are lighter and stronger than anything else on the market. Machined head profiles are easily changed with our CNC equipment so we will stay current with new cylinder head developments. Volume production is expected to keep the price reasonable.

Our pricing policy has given the impression to some that we are building an economy, or in between, piston. The truth is, we are striving to build the "State of the Art" piston that is best, regardless of price. Reasonable pricing is just an added benefit.


love your story mate . i lost my father when i was 5 yrs old . i just hope he is proud - and its a lovely feeling when it fires up for the first time knowing you have done it all yourself .

watch the money . it gets out of control !!!

also forget what people say about windor bottom end and engine blocks being weak.

keep under 750 bhp and there is no problem.

with any piston you want no detonation regardless of the product used. so pretend detonation doesnt exsist. what would you choose ?

you tube -water metahnol inj home made kit . ( i bought a system off the shelf ) but make one if you are on a budget a run it with the engine. will do a good job of protection if you do get close to det ! run it slightly rich ,

mustang 671 11-15-2012 02:00 PM

dont get alu roller rockers . as alu is soft the castings around the bearings have to be larger for strength, meaning a smaller beraing dompared to that os staninless ones. go to shop and look at the bearing size on alu and ss . also they dont do revolutions. they only move back and forth which is another reason to get as larger bearing as you can .

somethings you can get away with but i wouldnt on them. i also got hardened push rods . and rod guides .


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