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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 02-22-2013, 08:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewd8 View Post
LONG SLOT ROCKERS..... is that what i ask for at the parts store???? even if i have the short tip valves
Yes the slots in the bottom of the rocker is longer to accommodate the movement they need when rocking on the rocker stud for the higher lift cam! You are installing new lifters right? not the old ones you took out 2 months ago!

Jester

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Old 02-22-2013, 09:37 PM
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I have rebuilt fords for years, the oem rockers do not have alignment tabs on each side, however stock rockers and lifters are a positive stop rocker. meaning that you tighten them down all the way and the lifters will make up the difference when pumped up. since your heads have been modified to be fully adjustable you need to set them at zero lash then 1/2 to 3/4 turn past. but if you do this with a dry lifter you will collapse the lifter and when it pumps up it will be to much and can put you in to coil bind or worse hang a valve. proper cam geometry is crucial and can lead to many disaster's down the road.
if you can post a picture of a rocker arm bottom view and a picture of a bad pushrod side view.
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:10 AM
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ford rockers

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Originally Posted by prumora1 View Post
I have rebuilt fords for years, the oem rockers do not have alignment tabs on each side, however stock rockers and lifters are a positive stop rocker. meaning that you tighten them down all the way and the lifters will make up the difference when pumped up. since your heads have been modified to be fully adjustable you need to set them at zero lash then 1/2 to 3/4 turn past. but if you do this with a dry lifter you will collapse the lifter and when it pumps up it will be to much and can put you in to coil bind or worse hang a valve. proper cam geometry is crucial and can lead to many disaster's down the road.
if you can post a picture of a rocker arm bottom view and a picture of a bad pushrod side view.
you are slightly in correct,since about 1968 ford used a rail rocker(tabs on eather side,next they went to a fulcrome style with a capscrew to hold each assm in place(similer to olds) these wher non adjustable. this problem is convertening to screw in studs and guide plates.if the heads arnt machined the thickness of guide plates at the rocher stand aria of heads ther will be endless isues.after corecting those isues like you sead they are now adjustable
now the man with the isues should go to the librarey or some 1 like yourself and learn the corect way to adjust the rochers.like older sb cheves and early 289fords same procedure.(not trying to be a smart as but have had same isues and trying to be helpfull.cliff
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:07 PM
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yes i found wear marks on the studs, from the rockers,
silly question , but can i die grinder the rockers in to long slots, couse these rockers are new and unreturnable, and i don't need them sitting around here...
i did not buy them,,,they came with the motor
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:51 PM
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Old 02-23-2013, 12:56 PM
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Their are non adjustable rockers and adjustments are made with longer or shorter push rods or lash caps!
There are Conversions or some stock that you can adjust like Chevy small blocks, but the valve train geometry has to be right!

We have no Idea what size cam came out and the difference it would make to the geometry! The OP didn't Know what spring bind was so I'm guessing He is a novice, I'm guessing that's why he chose an auto cam instead of marine cam!

His old cam (I'm guessing) was a solid he stated he couldn't compress the lifters even after 2 months, on a hydro lifter they will at least compress between the pushrod pocket and the plunger down off the lock ring!


I worked for Fords for many years and was sponsored by Ford during the 60s during the FX Thunderbolt era, and never met or saw a Ford guy install pumped up lifters!!! unless they were the used ones going back on the old cam! And to say they can't be adjusted dry is a wrong statement And lifters will not make up the difference when pumped up that's why Ford checked valve train geometry by the compression method and had lash caps and push rods in our parts room to make the alterations, some engines could have longer push rods on just 1 or 2 cylinders. Right from the Factory! That was one of the reasons you put push rods back in the exact order you removed them from and the same with lifters, and with lash caps! If the OP just threw his parts together and didnt set them out in order he may have trouble and now the push rods are bent so you cant compare lengths!!!!

On a dual grind cam if that's what the old one was the last blue printer may have had different length push rods on the exhaust then the intakes!!!!! The other thing to consider if he went to a bigger cam is valve to piston clearance especially at 5500 RPM all day long on a close tolerance engine! If that engine was blue printed for the last cam there may not be clearance for a bigger lift? You cant just stab any cam in a custom blue printed engine ,If thats what he has?
Jester
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewd8 View Post
yes i found wear marks on the studs, from the rockers,
silly question , but can i die grinder the rockers in to long slots, couse these rockers are new and unreturnable, and i don't need them sitting around here...
i did not buy them,,,they came with the motor
You need new rockers, and screw in studs, you need to check geometry before ordering push rods. Or Lash caps if there is enough room on valve tip for them!


Jester

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Old 02-23-2013, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliff tate View Post
you are slightly in correct,since about 1968 ford used a rail rocker(tabs on eather side,next they went to a fulcrome style with a capscrew to hold each assm in place(similer to olds) these wher non adjustable. this problem is convertening to screw in studs and guide plates.if the heads arnt machined the thickness of guide plates at the rocher stand aria of heads ther will be endless isues.after corecting those isues like you sead they are now adjustable
now the man with the isues should go to the librarey or some 1 like yourself and learn the corect way to adjust the rochers.like older sb cheves and early 289fords same procedure.(not trying to be a smart as but have had same isues and trying to be helpfull.cliff
Cliff

Seems like only us old farts Know these little things I guess in this new age even Ford enthusiasts never learned the old ways!

I forgot so much since those times, from the early Chrysler & Ford engines, but I remember the valve trains!!!

Jester
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Old 02-23-2013, 03:49 PM
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The earliest Windsors had the same "adjustable" valve train the 289 and early 302s had. There was an engineering change called "Change L-4". It was mid-69, when all the small blocks got the "positive stop" nut/stud combo and a specific valve stem "height". In the "machine shop", we have a book with the spec in it, as to how tall the valve is in relation to the spring perch. Theorhetically, if you hit that number, torque the nut to 20 lbs. (or is the Ford 15?), and have the "stock" pushrod, the lifter will "self-center". Most V8 engines from the late '50s-on, used this method for hydraulics. Unless the head(s) has been milled significntly in the past, this method is pretty much fool-proof. We use a dial indicator, but there are other tools, "Swifty Gage" being the most popular for a mechanic. Some shops aren't aware, or don't take the time. Any GOOD builder knows all about it.

From looking at the pics, the holes I spoke of are okay (can't tell the year of the head from the pic). The stud bosses LOOK okay, but I can't tell if there's an "angle problem" from a pic.

The assertion that coil bind could cause this is valid. It's rare, but I HAVE seen it. Usually, they pop the tip off the valve at the keeper groove, the valve "drops" and BOOM!

The installed height needs to be measured and the spring checked against it. You can remove the spring without pulling the head using compressed air and a "lever type" valve spring compressor. Having an experienced engine builder on hand to do the measuring may be called for.

Jim
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Old 02-23-2013, 04:33 PM
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this motor came in a boat, i just bought, that was windowed,,,the previose owner blue a piston into 80 pieces,,,the wrist pin went through the cylinder wall,,,,i got a used block and put all the pieces in and on, with new matching piston, wrist pin, con rod, all new bearings,,,
i do know he put $7000.00 into the boat, most into the engine...
i then put all his parts into this newblock,,,# match block,,,
just guessing it was all done right couse he had 500 hours on it, from his rebuild....there are other factors that coused the engine to blow,,,like running with no water and over heated,,,,,,,
where can i find out more about valve train geometry,,,in laymans terms
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Old 02-23-2013, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by stewd8 View Post
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Rocher shown is from a 260 or early 289,acording to my interchang book(which can be purchase at most big book stores) these rockers do not have long enough slots for big cams,and are ment for early styl valves, i have used them with the early 351 w valvs but ground the stems so the same as early 289.with marks on screw in studs the rockers ar binding and or studs not inst corectly. go to a reptable machine shop and make sure the studs are in deep enough,also get some aftermarket rockers that have longer slots. you ar heading for disaster unless you get somequalified help.
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Old 02-23-2013, 11:21 PM
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hay thanks guys, i learned a lot from you,,,, i found this that explains alot

http://www.american-automobile.com/Erson%20ford.pdf


i'll let you know, when i get it all figured
one thing,,,,how do i know if the pedistals have been machined down,,,
do you have a stock height, or a machined height that i can measure mine
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:16 AM
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everybody take a good look at there sbf's. since the late 60's ford has used positive stop rockers in all of there small blocks until 1986 where things slowly started to change. 1 there pedestal mount meaning that they are a positive stop and you tighten them down all the way, and how is the difference made up? when the lifter pumps up! same way as your Chrysler small blocks with the rail rockers.

In 1986 ford started with the efi engines to start changing them over to roller motors, and even then they were still positive stop rockers. its when there are those who try to convert the stock cast iron heads over to a fully adjustable, which there's nothing wrong with, unless its done wrong.

there are those who say that pumping up the lifters is wrong, but I can argue the same point without pumping them up, I guess its your preference. after all we're looking for advice, not a darn lecture of what everyone else is doing wrong. everyone has opinions and advice just like buttholes.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:53 AM
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sbford

good post 1
i am in favor of not pumping lifters while asembling.Bolt the rockers up then with spark plugs out turn the engin to #1 tdc,you can manually compress the lifter to insure (a) it is off the snap ring( b) it is not at the bottem of travel( c) )ther is no clearance at the valve. then go threw the fireing order check them all.you can use a soft wire to be sure each cyl is tdc.with plugs out easey to turn engine. if lifters are pumped up with a big screwdriver and slow constant presure you can collaps the lifterand make same checks,just harder.pros will chuckel at this methed but it is fool proof.just my thoughts cliff
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:19 AM
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yesterday i removed all the rockers and studs,,,there is wear marks on all but one of the studs,,,i'm looking at some nice roller rockers 1.6 3/8 ,,,if and when i get them, i'll put them in and double check the geomitry is right, and all should be good
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