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352 that hasnt ran in 46 years

3K views 32 replies 13 participants last post by  seven up 
#1 ·
my grandfather passed away about 4 months ago and left his 1960 ford thunderbird, all original and not so full of rust, to me. the whole car needs a complete run through. I figured if I can get the engine to run, this would all be worth it. the car has 66k miles on it and was last driven in 1969.


to start: I put a socket on the crank bolt and to no surprise to me, the engine didn't budge. the last 4 days ive been putting in a mixture of marvels mystery oil and off road diesel fuel into the cylinders which has been finding its way into the oil pan which i checked the oil before i began to see if any water was present and there wasn't.. as of yesterday it still did not budge. 18" breaker bar no extension all muscle tugging on that wrench im scared of breaking the bolt off. its an automatic with a cruise-o-matic trans. I don't want to pull the engine just yet, id rather get it unstuck first. ill rebuild it later. but as in having a 8 month old baby with one working spouse, funds are scarce for extra curricular activities. I want to bump start the engine with the starter (may not be a great idea), but for some reason the red and black battery cables seem backwards.The red is going to the engine block and black to the solenoid. the cables look original but I could be wrong. the generator, water pump and power steering are all free and I cut the belts off before I started.


what can, or should i do.
heres a picture of the car for reference.
 

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#2 ·
I use pure Marvel in them when they're stuck. You have to be careful and not break a ring or piston land. Let it soak for a week, see if it budges. It may take a solid month to have it spin free.


In the mean time you have a lot of other work to do, like the carb, gas tank, check the starter out and so on.
 
#4 ·
If you just want to get it to run as is, just rebuild the carb that it has on it


I have turned a few engines over by removing the starter and using a bar to "inch " it over with the flexplate/ring gear. Prying on it to get it to turn , even if just a little.


If it is pretty rusty , even in just one cylinder, it may not budge at all. It may be easier to turn backwards at first.


Keep soaking it for sure.
 
#7 ·
I guess I'll be pulling the starter. I heard about trying to pry the ring gear but I wasn't sure how to attack it because I don't feel like breaking teeth on the flex plate. So I guess this will be full of trial and hopefully no error. Never rebuilt a carb before. But I assume the autolite series should be well covered in the web for rebuild info
 
#5 ·
The car looks great and it has a lot of potential. Unless you just want to keep it all original, you may want to look for a 390 or even a 428 if the 352 gives you a problem. Ford performance parts aren't quite as easy to find as GM, but a 390 with high performance heads and a decent cam would move that car really well.

I'm not sure how well the cruise-o-matic holds up to more power, but there was a version used with the 390.

Bruce
 
#6 ·
I don't plan on keeping it all original honestly. I'm a big fan of resto-mods. I'd love to drop a 428 crank and rods in the engine. But it seems like you can't get a straight answer on what Pistons to buy to make the 410 stroker out of the 352 block. If anything I'll probably end up dropping in a C6. More abundant and easier to modify to hold more power.

Btw the car was garage kept for 30 years but spent the last 15 or so under a tarp after the garage was sold.
 
#8 ·
I'd bag up that 352 and old trans for posterity. The original value shouldn't be ignored. Stash them out of the weather where they won't be confused for junk.

The 4100 is an excellent carb for its era. Fairly efficient and makes good power. IIRC, that one is about 650 CFM.

The sky is the limit for what can be done with the FE engine. Every high performance and race part known to man has been made in quantity, most of which is still readily available. Tough stuff and powerful when properly execute.

The bore in the 352 block is 4". The "410" modification has been done, but is not optimum. Agreed, if you're going to change things, use a 390, or better yet, a 428. You can generally bore most 390 blocks to 4.090", but sonic testing is called for beyond that (.040 over). If your budget can stand it, there are 427 blocks available (the ultimate FE).

Your piston selection for the 390 will be limited with the smaller bore, as 4.125 is the "base" for many aftermarket offerings. "Customs" are available in any shape, size, configuration, etc. The large rod journal offers the ability to grind them to BBC sizes and a variety of connecting rods emerge. The 6.8" is among the most popular. A good crank guy can add nearly 1/4" of stroke to a 390 stroke by offset grinding, actually making the crank stronger in the process. We "narrow" rods and bearings for this all the time.

The old cast iron Cruis-O-Matic isn't up to any real performance applications. If a 3-speed auto is desired, C-6 is the only logical choice. The later truck OD autos (the big ones, I don't remember the designation, NOT AOD) are pretty tough, too.

Should be a 9" rear. I had a '60 in high school. The factory air still worked! Cool cars.

FWIW

Jim
 
#15 ·
A 390 is a 352 block with 0.050 overbore. Indeed many 390's have a 352 cast into them on the front of the block. I turned a 352 into a 390 once. Just bore block 0.050 and use standard 390 crank, rods, and pistons. That you could almost always do even with a very rusted cylinder. Or take it out 0.080 and go with 0.030 over 390 pistons if you need to clean it up even more. DO NOT use the 352 rods, they are different length than most all the rest. Probably a 1960 352 has pretty decent heads compared to later ones. 352 was a performance engine back then. Check on the FE web sites for good 352 castng numbers. C6 is the only tranny worth having. Forget the $$$ required to get the huge cubes. That boat is not going to accelerate very quickly no matter what you do. I can see a lowered resto mod with 390, glasspacks, and wire wheels! Cool car! I would personally work with the original block and heads.
 
#16 ·
The casting number for the block will be behind the generator area. And finding a B9 block in a 1960 is not unusual. The numbering is upside down.

You know the Ford numbering system ? B=1950's, C=1960's. A B9 engine block will be 1959 casting.

Hasn't been run in over 40 years so I'd drain the crankcase and refill up into the valley area with the mixture. Some have used tranny fluid for this, too. You will see through the oil fill tube + flashlight. That is what I'd do however this is not stamped in stone as the way to proceed.

And the rocker area receives alot of oil on the FE through special mounting bolts on the rocker arms. The umbrella valve stem seals are likely toast and laying in the drainback holes of the cylinder heads, against the oil pump pickup screen in the oil pan and probably the valley area waiting to be washed onto the rotating assembly and into the oil pan. The valve springs have been in the same spot for 40+ years ?? Melling VS160 at Northern Auto Parts is the best deal we could find on 352 valve springs. So beware. You may be fine or fire it up as is and be starved for oil. Pre-oiling the engine can tell you alot, too.

I'd like to see some photos of the oil pump pickup screen but that's asking alot.
 
#17 ·
Every seal in the engine will be shot, pull it out and refresh everything before trying to start it. You will avoid damage to what could possibly be usable parts by trying.

My bet is a good cleaning and rehone with fresh rings, seals and gaskets and she will live again...worst case it needs an overbore and new pistons to clean up rust pitting.

Its worth more all original than modded, keep it stock and enjoy it for what it is...it will never be a dragster. A mild cam will bump up the torque while your in there and a fresh set of rings will bring back the compression which will be better than when it was new.

Or build a 390 and swap it in, you can still find them.
 
#19 ·
FE oiling

I don't know the year it changed but early FE used a pencil sized oil pump drive from the dist to the oil pump . You need the later larger sized distributor , shaft, and matching oil pump. some of the FE books show how to use a die grinder to rework oil passageways. I still have an FE in one of my roadsters with 3 carbs.
 
#20 ·
Good news! After a week of daily torque and application of marvel mystery oil. The engine released. It spun freely for about 350 degrees. Then would come to a hard stop. I'm assuming this is a rusty ridge in the cylinder walls. and like some of you have posted, a rebuild is inevitable I haven't been able to get a good look at the block or head numbers due to the sudden rainstorms in north Carolina, it has been a beast getting the work done that I have already accomplished. I will update with the information y'all have requested this week. Thank you all for your support, suggestions and things to look out for. I want to see the engine run. So I'll prime the oil system make sure all valves are moving then crank her up. It'll be a one time deal. Then total rebuild. Rebuilding the carburetor this week. Wish me luck
 
#24 · (Edited)
I want to see the engine run. So I'll prime the oil system make sure all valves are moving then crank her up. It'll be a one time deal. Then total rebuild. Rebuilding the carburetor this week. Wish me luck
Good luck with your engine. Honestly, starting it might do serious damage for no good reason. If you're going to rebuild it in any case, please consider not trying to start it at this point and just tear it down to see what you have to work with.

Car is way cool!

For the carb, the shaft you show is for a 1983 up 2150. You might want to contact a guy like this (below)... should be able to get you what you need. Might even want to consider having him do your carb. Getting the throttle plates back on right can be tricky, and they have to be removed to get the shaft out. I don't know the skill of this guy but he seems to specialize in the 4100 Autolite. Been around a long time on Ebay and has great feedback. Also, know that often the potmetal holes for the throttle shaft are worn and need bushed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-Autolite-4100-carburetor-restoration-service-/151783657781
 
#22 ·
The sudden stop when you turn the engine approx 350 degrees is probably a piston hitting a stuck valve. Pull the valve covers and spray valve stems through the valve springs with PB Blaster to free valves. Try turning engine over by hand and watch valves for movement. The stuck valve will have a real sloppy rocker arm when the corresponding lifter is off the cam lobe. Spray the valve stem again and lightly tap the valve stem with a rubber hammer to get the valve moving. Take your time and go easy.
 
#23 ·
Autolite 4100

okay guys sorry for the delay. been busy this past week. I haven't touched the engine and am now going through the carb for the engine. got it broken down to the throttle plate, shaft and linkages and I got impatient with the seized primary throttle and managed to twist the shaft. its not broken, but when I look through the bore I can see more daylight in one over the other. not to mention it ill still seized on one side of the shaft where the throttle linkages are connected to the gas pedal. my question. where I can I find another shaft, or is it a lost cause on this 4100 at this point. the secondaries released the first day with just pb blaster.


I found this one, but not sure if its compatible.
Throttle Shaft - Ford 2150, OEM # CM-4199, E3TZ-9581-M
 

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#29 · (Edited)
Just stumbled on something that is probably of interest to you. It seems pre-1963 FE blocks had a different camshaft retaining arrangement. Cams for the early ones (at least performance cams) seem to be made from unobtanium. People are converting to use later camshafts by tapping block for the later camshaft retaining plate, and using later camshaft, retaining plate, timing gears/chain, and front cover. NO problem with using 390 crank/rods/pistons.

With your factory 73cc iron heads, 10cc relief flat top pistons (with 1.780 compression height 390 pistons and a standard deck height of 10.170"), and a Felpro 4.400x0.041 head gasket static CR would be 9.56:1. This would work well with a cam that would give a dynamic CR of 8.0-8.1 like the Comp XE262H and shouldn't ping with pump gas. I would certainly hope you could easily get 350HP very well behaved ponies out of a 390 with a modern cam, if the original 352 was 300HP. If you want more, then buy aftermarket aluminum heads.

If your heads need shaved or block needs decked to correct surface imperfections, then you have to play games with piston height, or valve relief volume, or head gaskets (usually multiple things) to adjust CR back down. This is why needs all checked out thoroughly by a machinist before starting to buy parts.

Good luck!
 
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