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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 01:07 AM
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Went to a machine shop today. Apparently to have the block bored decked and the assembly balanced its going to be about 375. This doesn't seem too bad.

To get a valve job is 180 for the pair. So if the brodix heads do come with the valve job like you were saying then neat I'll save money. but would it be worth it to look into a 4 or 5 angle valve job?

They said they'd inspect the crank and rods during balancing because they might not need resizing and if they don't why waste money? I don't remember if there was a charge or not but would it be safer to resize them anyways? Is there any benefits to resizing or just safe vs sorry?

Lastly, they said they recommend locaters (i think thats what they said) vs valve cups. So that you don't have to resize the spring pockets(if you would have to). What do you guys think/recommend? I don't remember if I mentioned wether my heads were aluminum or not so I don't know if theres a difference.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 08:24 AM
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resizing the rods and then balancing the rotating assembly are two separate, different operations.

I think common sense would dictate that the rods are measured first, then resized as required.
You're paying for the shop time reguardless. If you think you are only going to pay for 7 rods or 6 rods
when they have to work on all 8, you are bound to piss them off.
Use your head.
Using a spring locator will not require spring seat machining.
The valve job should be fine as you get it.
But its up to you to assemble the heads correctly.
You must check all dimensions and clearances.

Spring installed height must be checked. May require shimming.
Use common sense.

I think if you have to ask these questions you had best pay the shop to do this assembly.
You seem confused on the basics of the basics.

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 12-22-2012 at 08:31 AM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12-22-2012, 08:34 AM
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If you will be getting new rod bolts "ARP rod bolts", then all the rods will be resized as required.
There is no free lunch and there are no short cuts.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2012, 02:57 AM
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Ok I'm really confused now.

Yes I would think that resizing would be followed by balancing. I would think though it would be best when bringing the assembly in to have this done on the same trip.

They wouldn't resize only a couple of rods right? (your statement makes me think maybe this could be the case. I do have a tendency to over think things. I would imagine this would cause instability if someone did this.)

When I asked about spring cups, he said something about most after market heads coming with big enough pockets. I think it was something like 1.5" pockets. If you use wide springs they pockets have to be expanded if you use cups as they take up space. But if you use locators most of the time this is not the case. This is what I got out of that.
Is this correct? I could have mis interpreted what he was saying.

I'm confused as to what makes people think I'm trying to cut corners. I'm not. I may have to wait till I'm healthier before I post as my brain seems to be kind of addled.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2012, 10:53 AM
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let me throw in some confusion:

you dont drop parts at the machine shop,get work done,take home and then assemble them.

You become like best friends with the machinist for a couple weeks:::

you need to bore the block before you can trial assemble the engine to check deck height,usually you bore and hone to custom fit each piston,,,,
any engine that is raced or looking for maximum power will have as much blue printing as the assembler is willing to put into his efforts. block needs to be alighn honed and squared,final decking cannot be done until at least one trial assemble(partial). Your block will be machined at least 2 times.not counting final piston to wall honing,each piston will be hand fitted. crank is also custom polished for final bearing clearance. Crank is checked for straightness,polished to fit each bearing set,checked for rod side clearance.(another trial fit),,,,block can probably go back for decking. test fit after decking(after measuring piston to valve clearance) machine pistons if requires,crank,rods,pistons,balancer,flywheel etc can go for balance check. we weigh all the rings and bearings in extreme cases(for each set) another trial fit assembley,double check P to V,
take it all apart( good idea to recheck crank for straightness after balancing) any fine adjustments,do now. clean everything like you are going to do surgery with the engine parts,get all the parts in order,clean dust free shop,,,

this is just a very mild hint of the details involved. 40 hours to assemble an engine is a fast build imo. dont make any mistakes,have someone else take measurements to confirm yours are all correct.fix any differences. every part is trial fit before final fit. short blocks are often assembled more than 4 times.If you assemble the parts after you get them with out checking them and its a one time thing I doubt the engine will be all that great

maybe oldbogie can detail my post better as he seems pretty good at this kind of articulation
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2012, 04:40 PM
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/su...-311/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-k12-772-8

This is an example of the rebuild kit that this simple rebuild is based on.
Reuse your 350 block, cast crank and stock GM 350 connecting rods.
Keep it real simple. Standard bearing clearances, etc.
There is nothing fancy about it and its not rocket science.
A cast crank is never bent.. Can be cracked or journals ground incorrectly but never bent.
Cast cranks do not bent and cannot be straightened even if they were.

If it spins in the assembled mains, it is straight enough.

I always measure and calc the block deck height and required deck machining on the assembled old 350 motor before dissassembly. Keep it real simple.
What matters beyond a very basic rebuild assembly is the VTP clearance, cam end play, rocker arm geometry/pushrod length and piston ring end gap (read the friggin directions) and degreeing in the cam correctly.
Set the valve lash cold at .004" tighter than the cam card specs.
You can take all the time nessesary to assemble this very basic re-build, in your garage.
If you do run into something that does not fit, tear it down and fix that.

get the shop to assemble the pistons on the rebuilt stock rods, for you.
take it home and clean it all and assemble it. Pay attention to the ring end gaps. (generous is better) File the rings by hand as required. And rocker geometry/pushrods.
This 355 street motor is real easy to build.
Stick it in your camaro with a 9""-10" 3500++ converter, 4.56 gears and 8.5-28" ET streets
and it will exceed your performance goals.
If you want to wear a neck brace use a ATI 8" treemaster and 4.88's 8.5x28" tires and the caltracs.
Anything you do to reduce vehicle weight is a bonus. Especially off the front of the car.

www.atiracing.com

Last edited by F-BIRD'88; 12-23-2012 at 05:09 PM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:20 AM
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Vinnie that wasn't confusing. That sounds fun. I've found these in regards to blue printing and have them bookmarked.
4g63 Blueprinting Basics - YouTube
Engine Blueprinting (Part 1) Precision Engine
Blueprint Your Motor For Mere Dollars-Super Chevy Magazine
Like the second guide states I've found I can only do so much at home but I think I grasp the fundementals relatively well. Still going to take it to the machine shop.
This is to give you guys an idea of what I've been doing. Lots and lots and lots of reading. And this is just the favorite ones. I haven't watched the videos yet.

Also just so you guys can further understand. If it was 1000$ for all the machine work OR I could rent the equipment/tools for 24 hours for 2000$. I'd choose the latter. I think I'm giving the impression I'm doing stuff to save money. I'm not.

Yeppers going to follow your initial piece of advice f-bird. Kind of disappointed I can't find any of those rebuilds for 6" rods. But basically lets take my original build. Use your idea for the bottom end. I REALLLLLYYYYY like that cam. and thats the engine itself.

If this seems solid then I'm going to start buying more stuff. Like I said, I have the intake and carb pistons are next so I can start the block machine work.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2012, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post

Set the valve lash cold at .004" tighter than the cam card specs.
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.004 Tighter? I ve been doing it wrong? Who taught me looser? I thought clearance would close up when hot?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2012, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richiehd View Post
.004 Tighter? I ve been doing it wrong? Who taught me looser? I thought clearance would close up when hot?
On a push rod engine the block grows more than the valves do.

try it.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2012, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richiehd View Post
.004 Tighter? I ve been doing it wrong? Who taught me looser? I thought clearance would close up when hot?
Lash the valves HOT on a couple cylinders and use them as your standard to set the cold lash. Let the engine cool completely- like overnight-plus. Then check the lash on the valves you lashed hot- this is the correct cold lash that you can use from that point onward, knowing it was based on the correct hot lash to begin with.
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Old 12-24-2012, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 View Post
On a push rod engine the block grows more than the valves do.

try it.
Damnit!! I learn something every day here!
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2012, 01:53 AM
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http://www.cranecams.com/pdf-tech-tips/mech-lift.pdf
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2012, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
Lash the valves HOT on a couple cylinders and use them as your standard to set the cold lash. Let the engine cool completely- like overnight-plus. Then check the lash on the valves you lashed hot- this is the correct cold lash that you can use from that point onward, knowing it was based on the correct hot lash to begin with.
Heh I was just talking to my dad about doing this. Lash them to the factory/camcard spec followed by heating the car up. He said we could probably mess with the temp a bit to bring it a little warmer than typical operating temperature just so we could have some wiggle room for the finished thing. I hate lashing valves though but every little thing counts...right?
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2012, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathmunchy View Post
Heh I was just talking to my dad about doing this. Lash them to the factory/camcard spec followed by heating the car up. He said we could probably mess with the temp a bit to bring it a little warmer than typical operating temperature just so we could have some wiggle room for the finished thing. I hate lashing valves though but every little thing counts...right?
i think you have this confused. And are over thinking this.

Just set the lash cold, tighter than the hot lash spec. -.004 to -.006" is good.

Set it and forget it.
You hate doing i cause you make a big thing out of a very simple routine thing.
The valve lash spec is not carved in stone. You can very the lash setting, often to good tuning effect, within practical mechanical limits.
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Old 12-26-2012, 12:53 AM
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Normally I just set it to factory specs. This is just something we were discussing to see about how tight we could get it. He raised some concerns to look into. Not sure if pushrod engines are going to be different in this regard to OHC engines but I'd imagine it will be damn near the same exact annoying thing.
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