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Deathmunchy 12-17-2012 05:44 AM

355 build check up
 
Alrighty so I got my block. Its been checked and is looking good other than high mileage wear. Once I get the parts I'll be able to get it bored and balanced.

I have a 1980 z28 with the 190hp 350 LM-1. 3.42 slip diff. It is bone stock.

Uses will be late night taco bell runs, The rare relaxing cruise and as much track time as I can afford.


Heres what I'm going with and want to know if it will work well together. or missing anything.

Not entirely sure as this was given to me but I believe this is it.
holley 650 cfm double pumper with mechanical secondaries(any way to switch to vacuum? or should I not worry about that)
Holley Performance Products 650 CFM Four Barrel Street/Strip Carburetor*0-4777S

Edelbrock performer air-gap
Edelbrock Performer RPM Air-Gap Intake Manifolds 7501 - SummitRacing.com

Bare brodix ik 200's. 64cc chamber
Brodix Cylinder Heads IK 200 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Chevy 1020000-1 - SummitRacing.com
Head improvement kit. up to .625 valve lift
Head Improvement Kit, Chev SB, 2.02-1.60", Mech FT/Hyd Rlr-Competition Products

Howards 1.6 full rollers 7/16 studs.
Howards Cams Billet Aluminum Rocker Arms 90073 - SummitRacing.com

Eagle 6" I beams
Eagle SIR I-Beam Connecting Rods 6000BPLW - SummitRacing.com

Probe -3.5 forged pistons w/ 1.26 compression height
Probe SRS Forged Pistons 13720-030 - SummitRacing.com

Entering the I'm really really unsure area.

Fel pro .015 compressed gasket for a .04 quench. I've been told to use this. The gasket is .07" larger than the bore though, will this affect the quench effect or any of the combustion process? Would a .04 gasket and get the heads decked to get proper quench be better?
Fel-Pro Performance Head Gaskets Q1094 - SummitRacing.com

Howards .927 wrist pins. Do i need these or will the pistons come with them? Alternatively I can't figure out where to find press fit piston wrist pins. Very confused here.
Howards, Tool Steel Wrist Pins, .927" x 2.500", .120" Wall-Competition Products

The crank I'm looking at. Alternatively should I keep my stock crank?
Eagle Cast Steel Crankshafts 1035034857AU - SummitRacing.com

I have spent a whole lot of time reading and getting a few people to critque my parts and most of them have ok knowledge as far as engines go but not so much on the performance side. I want to make sure I'm on the right track and everything will work well together. Going to eventually start shopping around everywhere but for now using summit as the main link.

This is basically pushing the budget with some left for machine work for the heads and block more gaskets, headers, oil pump and other stuff for the engine.

Trans and chassis will be researched and upgraded as soon as I've figured out the engine build. Also if anyone can give me an approximate HP/TQ figure I'd like this and any recommendations on headers, oil pump, distributors etc.


vinniekq2 12-17-2012 11:08 AM

The heads you chose are very good heads.what camshaft? why a 650 carb? That car is obese,I had a 1980 Z-28 and it weighed 3915!not with a driver,yikes.Mine had a 454 ls-5.
what track time are you talking? road race? drag? slalom?

F-BIRD'88 12-17-2012 01:29 PM

Do not buy a dome piston. Get a flat top piston.
Here is a better build.
get the block bored as required.
Buy the Summit house brand labeled complete 350 SBC engine rebuild kit with flat top pistons inc.
Get your stock GM crank reground 10-10 and get your stock GM connecting rods resized.
Get the block decked as required to achieve a assembled 0deck height with the flat top pistons in the kit.
Buy a complete Comp cams mech street roller cam and kit
K-12-772-8 Xr286R-10 (add a roler cam thrust button to complete)
Buy the brodix Ik200 64cc heads bare and add Manley 2.02x 1.60 7/16" screw in studs+guide plates and comp pushrods.
Summit-Scorpion 1.6:1 aluminum roller rockers (7/16"stud)
650 DP Carb upgrade with a Holley/proform 750HP carb body kit.
The Performer RPM manifold is fine.
1-5/8" or 1-3/4" headers and 2.5" dual exhaust (use collector extensions at the track.)

Trans converter and gears. Get a 9" 10" 3500++stall converter and 4.56:1 gears. 9x28" street strip ET streets.
Get some traction bars and a drive shaft hoop.
Buy 4.56:1 gears and buy a NEW Auburn gear posi or a NEW Eaton posi. Do not re-use the stock GM posi.
The Stock GM axles are fine.
8.5" x 28" ET streets
because the block is 0 decked use a .041" felpro composite head gasket.

your dome piston choice would have resulted in excessive compression ratio.
The money you save using the Summit engine rebuild kit and your crank and resized GM rods
will more than pay for the roller cam kit.
You will go faster-longer.
As Vinnie stated:
80's camaros are heavy. you will need the 4.56 gears (28" tall tires)
This matched street strip combo will go fast at the track and run very nice on the street.
Anything you do to reduce vehicle weight is a bonus.

These Comp cams XR street roller cams are very easy to maintain. Set the valve lash cold .004" tighter than the cam card "hot lash" spec. real easy.

Pushrod length" you must preassemble "mock up" the assembly and measure for correct pushrod length-rocker geometry
and then order the comp pushorods.
Call Comp Cams cam help line for tech advice.

Getting the crank+rods+pistons rebalanced is a good thing. Other than that + gettig the assembled piston deck height right and the piston ring end gap right (read the directions in the box) and the roller cam thrust button installed end clearance right, its pretty straight forward.

Your compression ratio will be 10.2:1 and run fine on 92 octane gas.

techinspector1 12-17-2012 01:30 PM

Static compression ratio 11.50:1 using those pistons. What will you use for fuel?

IK200 heads can be had with either OEM size 1.250" valve springs or aftermarket 1.437" springs. Do you know the size of the spring pockets? Your head improvement kit includes 1.437" springs. If the heads are cut for 1.250", you will have some machine work to do.

Do you understand that the valve seats are not finished on these heads? You will have some machine work to do.

Do you understand that you cannot run the valve springs directly on the aluminum head. I don't see where you have taken spring cups into consideration.

Do you understand that the rocker studs you are buying are 7/16". I'm bettin' the heads are tapped for 3/8-16 and you will have more machine work to do.

Do you understand that you cannot run a shim gasket with aluminum heads and iron block?

Do you understand that you can buy all this stuff ready to bolt on without machine work. You will pay the price for this motor, whether it's to the manufacturer who will finish the product so that it will go together without further work or you will pay less for semi-finished stuff and pay a local machinist to finish it for you. There is no free lunch. You will pay somebody.

F-BIRD'88 12-17-2012 02:04 PM

Use a new stock OEM GM SBC oil pump.

Distributor: any good distributor with adjustable vacuum advance is fine.
EG: GM style HEI
For this combo: the distributor set up is real simple,
Simply lock out the mechanical advance curve.
dial in the vacuum advance as required. 15deg max limit.
aprox 10+/- deg added at steady part throttle hiway cruise speeds.
use ported vacuum.

F-BIRD'88 12-17-2012 02:08 PM

Do you understand that the rocker studs you are buying are 7/16". I'm bettin' the heads are tapped for 3/8-16 and you will have more machine work to do.

Tech: when was the last time you actually built a motor. All the heads are machined for a 7/16" thead in the head.
The only difference between a 3/8" SBC screw in stud and a 7/16" SBC screwin stud is the top thread diameter of the top part of the stud. one uses a 3/8" rocker and the other uses a 7/16" stud SBC rocker arm.

Either a 1.5 or a 1.6 ratio rocker arm gets it done, its up to you but wiht this street roller cam a 7/16" stud and matching 7/16" rocker arm is advised.

The Brodix bare Ik200 heads come with the valve job already done.
cleaning , checking clearances and valve sealing and correct assembly is all thats required.
Comp sells the spring seat cups. When using a spring seat cup in this head you will probabily want a +.100" length Manley valve and then shim as required for assembled spring height.
Comp cams and Brodix can advise. All you need to do is call.

this is the kit includes pistons all gaskets, rings bearings and the oil pump.
http://static.summitracing.com/globa...BCKIT1-000.jpg

F-BIRD'88 12-17-2012 03:10 PM

Street and Drag strip traction in a 1980's era Camaro.
Do it right the first time. And you will only need to do it once.
Calvert Racing - The Leader in Leaf Spring Innovation

techinspector1 12-17-2012 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623810)
Tech: when was the last time you actually built a motor. All the heads are machined for a 7/16" thead in the head.

So I occasionally drop the ball. I'd like to be around to see how you operate at my age and condition. Nobody bats a thousand.

techinspector1 12-17-2012 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623810)
The Brodix bare Ik200 heads come with the valve job already done.
cleaning , checking clearances and valve sealing and correct assembly is all thats required.

Then maybe you should put in a call to Summit and tell them to change the verbage in their parts description....
Brodix Cylinder Heads IK 200 Cylinder Heads for Small Block Chevy 1020000 - SummitRacing.com
They are saying these heads have unmachined seats.

Deathmunchy 12-18-2012 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623795)
Do not buy a dome piston. Get a flat top piston.
Here is a better build.
get the block bored as required.
Buy the Summit house brand labeled complete 350 SBC engine rebuild kit with flat top pistons inc.
Get your stock GM crank reground 10-10 and get your stock GM connecting rods resized.

from the parts It would seem I'm going to potentially getting up to 6500 rpms. Most computer simulations say I'll reach peak hp around 6000 rpm and peak TQ around 3500-4000. Will this Idea be ok? Do I not need to buy a new crank and rods? I kind of like the idea of the 6" rods for fun. Also the ones I'm looking at are forged. Also forged pistons at this point are somewhat of a I would really prefer to have and do not mind spending the extra coin for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623795)
Get the block decked as required to achieve a assembled 0deck height with the flat top pistons in the kit.
Buy a complete Comp cams mech street roller cam and kit
K-12-772-8 Xr286R-10 (add a roler cam thrust button to complete)

I was wondering if I should go mechanical or hydraulic. I like the idea of Mechanical as it seems to add more interactivity and valve trian control on my end. Will I need retro fit at all? Also Is howards ok? Couple buddies have had problems with Comp and I'm kind of worried about trying them. They use howards now.


Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623795)
Buy the brodix Ik200 64cc heads bare and add Manley 2.02x 1.60 7/16" screw in studs+guide plates and comp pushrods.
Summit-Scorpion 1.6:1 aluminum roller rockers (7/16"stud)
650 DP Carb upgrade with a Holley/proform 750HP carb body kit.
The Performer RPM manifold is fine.
1-5/8" or 1-3/4" headers and 2.5" dual exhaust (use collector extensions at the track.)

Seems good here. Is scorpion a good brand? I have never heard of them or seen them put into many other builds. Would the crane 1.6x energizers be acceptable?

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623795)
Trans converter and gears. Get a 9" 10" 3500++stall converter and 4.56:1 gears. 9x28" street strip ET streets.
Get some traction bars and a drive shaft hoop.
Buy 4.56:1 gears and buy a NEW Auburn gear posi or a NEW Eaton posi. Do not re-use the stock GM posi.
The Stock GM axles are fine.
8.5" x 28" ET streets
because the block is 0 decked use a .041" felpro composite head gasket.

Thank you for all of this. Also Yea looking at posi's. Do i need to buy the whole hub at the rear (not sure what its called as I have yet to really read about this area) or just the posi? Also yea the diff gear is a slip not limited slip so going to definitely upgrade that. I have a 4.1 barely used.
.041? why not .04? Also now this is something I can't find much on but what would be the disadvantages of a tighter quench? If I wanted to run a tighter quench (if its advantageous of course and i wouldn't exceed below .037 or so) What would I have to do to ensure stability?

Quote:

Originally Posted by F-BIRD'88 (Post 1623795)
your dome piston choice would have resulted in excessive compression ratio.
The money you save using the Summit engine rebuild kit and your crank and resized GM rods
will more than pay for the roller cam kit.
You will go faster-longer.
As Vinnie stated:
80's camaros are heavy. you will need the 4.56 gears (28" tall tires)
This matched street strip combo will go fast at the track and run very nice on the street.
Anything you do to reduce vehicle weight is a bonus.

This is the cam I'm looking at Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL111815-10 - SummitRacing.com. It will help increase DCR and I'm triyng to read about fuel as much as possible. I've read a good DCR is 8-8.5 for pump gas. Is this only due to spark knock or would this be similar to an air fuel ratio where 14:1 or so is just about perfect and will be the most efficient . So in other words is 8-8.5 just the most efficient range for a DCR? Would the higher octane slower burning gas be better with the higher DCR?

Thank you for all the additional information I really really appreciate that. Essentially I'm trying to build the most efficient engine possible. I'm also trying to read about all the tips and trick so keep em coming :D. Information is my currency. So any articles or however much you want to type is appreciated.

Also I would like to add I'm skittish about buying brands my friends or people at the car shows don't mention much. I want to do this once for the time being. I only have the next 6 months+ what I have saved to perfect this thing. So I can also only afford to do this once.

Deathmunchy 12-18-2012 03:03 AM

Cam: Howards Cams Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft and Lifter Kits CL111815-10 - SummitRacing.com

As far as the machine work questions. Anything I can do I want to do. Not want to save money on. I want to do this. To me having to pay someone else to do work I could do is alienating myself from the project. Also as a note. My father will be helping. He has been a mechanic for 25+ years. Has an abundance of tools and we have discussed this. Anything I think I can not do accurately enough He is more than happy to assist with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Static compression ratio 11.50:1 using those pistons. What will you use for fuel?

The highest octane fuel I can afford. Apparently I can get 11x from the track out here. I'm hoping this will keep combustion problems out of the way. Please let me know if I'm misleading myself.
I also understand higher octane does not=higher power.
I'm also going to have an approximate 9.1-9.3 DCR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
IK200 heads can be had with either OEM size 1.250" valve springs or aftermarket 1.437" springs. Do you know the size of the spring pockets? Your head improvement kit includes 1.437" springs. If the heads are cut for 1.250", you will have some machine work to do.

I think the bare spring pockets are 1.250. I will hopefully have the tools available to do make them the appropriate sizes accurately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Do you understand that the valve seats are not finished on these heads? You will have some machine work to do.

Yes
Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Do you understand that you cannot run the valve springs directly on the aluminum head. I don't see where you have taken spring cups into consideration.

Spring cups are something I'm going to start reading about shortly as I have not heard of them from before this. I assumed I would need some sort of spring seat. I also assumed the head rebuild kit came with that. When I got the kit I would probably notice this and then start looking and asking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Do you understand that the rocker studs you are buying are 7/16". I'm bettin' the heads are tapped for 3/8-16 and you will have more machine work to do.

Does tapping it out have to be done with precision machinery? Secondly I was under the impression where the studs went into the head the threads were still 3/8ths however the stud the rocker went around was where it was 7/16th. I think this was adressed but I would like to make doubly sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Do you understand that you cannot run a shim gasket with aluminum heads and iron block?

I did not know about the shim gasket. So it is better like I was asking to have the heads milled and use a .04" gasket or equivalent?

Quote:

Originally Posted by techinspector1 (Post 1623797)
Do you understand that you can buy all this stuff ready to bolt on without machine work. You will pay the price for this motor, whether it's to the manufacturer who will finish the product so that it will go together without further work or you will pay less for semi-finished stuff and pay a local machinist to finish it for you. There is no free lunch. You will pay somebody.

Yes, I understand this. Any tips as to tools I may need would be appreciated. 3 angle valve jobs are apparently 20$ a port. I also havent been able to locate any equipment or something where I could do this myself without spending something similar to the price of the motor.

Thanks for the helpful questions. Especially the seat cups. Going to go read about those now. Really appreciate it.

vinniekq2 12-18-2012 07:43 AM

That Howards roller cam is a fair cam.Is that your choice for sure?

F-BIRD'88 12-18-2012 10:40 AM

I gave you a complete Car engine build recipe. All you need to do is follow it, without substitutions.
Find a qualified auto machine shop that can do the block machining for you.

Deathmunchy 12-18-2012 04:40 PM

@ vinnie there is wiggle room there. I've been thinking about going with a mechanical I just don't know if i need to worry about the restrofit like I do with the hydraulics.

@ f-bird Sorry I'm not trying to argue just curious. There is only so much information one can garner without actually talking to people.
Main question is will that setup hold together after multiple track passes?

F-BIRD'88 12-18-2012 06:27 PM

There is no "retrofit" when it comes to solid roller cams.

It will out live you. Find a engine shop and build it exacty to spec.


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