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361hd f600

6K views 23 replies 4 participants last post by  Logger240A 
#1 ·
I installed a MSD street fire ignition , I set the new points at 18 thousandth, the plugs are gapped at 35 thousandth, the engine seems to miss at mid throttle, anything before or after that spot it's fine, and the miss sounds like it's against the rev limiter , the limiter is set at 3700 RPM! Anyone have any ideas?
 
#4 · (Edited)
be very careful with any MSD ignition system hooked up.. as they put out a lot of voltage above battery voltage to the positive and actually thru to the negative side of the coil.. it will burn out most electronic test gear.. i have seen it let the smoke out of 20,000 roll around turn up scopes.

inside the distributor... there should be a small braided or flexible wire that connects the breaker plate.. to the distributor housing.. this supplies the upper breaker plate with electrons... if its frayed.. you may have issues..

i would like you to examine the pivot on the breaker plate..
perhaps disconnect the vacuum advance see if your low RPM misfire goes away... or does it continue till a higher RPM.. the breaker plate pivots wear.. when the vacuum advance pulls on the upper plate .. the points gap actually changes..

is there a part number on your MSD kit.. or on the control box.. so i can look it up easier. is it a MSD 5520..


from the MSD manual..

Power Leads: These are the two heavy gauge wires (14 gauge) and are responsible for getting direct battery voltage to the Ignition.

Heavy Red: This wire connects directly to the battery positive (+) terminal or to a positive battery junction or the positive side of the starter solenoid. Note: Never connect to the alternator. it will blow the alternator out with the amount of current surging..

Heavy Black: This wire connects to a good ground, either at the battery negative (-) terminal or to the engine. wayne likes to ground the heavy black wire directly to a good spot on the engine..


Small Red: Connects to a switched 12 volt source, such as the ignition key or switch.


Orange: Connects to the positive (+) terminal of the coil. This is the only wire that makes electrical contact with the coil positive terminal.

Small Black: Connects to the negative (-) terminal of the coil. This is the only wire that makes electrical contact with the coil negative terminal.

Gray: Tach output wire. Connect to the tachometer or other rpm device.


Trigger Wires: There are two circuits that can be used to trigger the Street Fire Ignition; with points its the Points circuit (White wire) this is the wire from/to the distributor..

i realize that you have hooked this up properly.. but i am not standing there looking over your shoulder..

i would like to know.. ford coils use Push on wire connectors.. the studs are threaded .. its like a 10-32 or 12-32 machine screw nut size.. so you can use Ring terminals ..

i don't recall if this will fit your HD distributor or not. its been 25 years since i worked on an HD ford.. this is a NEW 10 buck breaker plate for ford distributors..

RockAuto Parts Catalog

might be available locally..

you might also.. want to see if you can use the cap, rotor, cap adapter.. to allow you to go to the 8mm or larger wires that use HEI style wires..

lastly.. you may want to examine your firing order.. the 7 and 8 cylinder which are the last 2 on the drivers side of the engine... follow the wires forward to the cap.. if they plug into the cap next to each other.. you will want to reroute the wires where the cross the valve cover in the spark plug wire separators.. please install them in this order.. ONLY on the drivers side.. 7, 5, 6, 8 so the 3rd spark plug wire is in first holder position followed by the first and second wire then the forth wire.. this puts the 7/8 wires far enough apart to avoid cross fire.. this happens on some fords.. and all chevys..

you may and it would probably be a good idea to print and perform this voltage drop test with a handheld digital volt meter.. only takes a few minutes.. http://i.imgur.com/WMDprhm.jpg

don't use it with the MSD connected.. but there is a way to reconnect the points type ignition to allow you to adjust the points dwell.. i am taking that the condenser is screwed down tight.. the points contacts are clean. not corroded or burned

if you had a spare distributor cap.. you could bore a hole in the side.. so you could look thru it with the engine running to see the points.. you could aim the timing light thru the hole... even though its flashing 3 times each time.. and you will have it hooked over the coil wire for this test.. its just a thought.. since its hard to monitor the points with an MSD hooked up without blowing the electronics out of the diagnostic tool.

why does it blow up diagnostic tools..
WARNING: When using a capacitive discharge ignition control, there is high voltage present at the coil primary terminals.
Never touch the coil or connect test equipment to these terminals.

so even though the points are closed and electrons are flowing.. when the points open.. instead of 10 or 12 volts coming thru the coil primary.. you have 300 or 400 volts coming thru..

this may or may not help you ..

By the way.. you mentioned that its a 361HD... but your user name is a 240.. that was also a ford truck motor..

this is a cap and rotor kit that might fit... but you will need the adapter..
http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tu...977/8-cylinders-j-7-5l-4bl-ohv/27787_0_45590/

this is the proper cap adapter ... http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tu...7/8-cylinders-j-7-5l-4bl-ohv/125_170550_2236/

you will probably be stuck using a 77 F250 460 set of spark plug wires.. they should be close.. but not perfect.
http://www.autozone.com/ignition-tu...nce/wireset/duralast-gold-wireset/456400_0_0/

still you need to verify the larger cap does not interfere with the intake manifold.. water pump housing.. as some models have a raised water pump mounting..
 
#7 ·
hmm... the BWD part number is a DL17

if you cannot find one.. and almost every parts store will have one .. if you can get the proper part number..

BWD DL17 - Ground Lead | O'Reilly Auto Parts



try to use some solder wick.. several layers into crimp terminals to duplicate it.

solder wick is braided copper wire designed to be used to be held down by the tip of a soldering gun to pull excess solder out of a solder joint on a circuit board..

you can just make up a 18 gauge version out of conventional wire. put a bend in it.. put a small loop in it.. so its flexible.. as the breaker plate does shift..
 
#8 ·
Napa is the part store I will have to use, it's the only one in my town do you know the part number for the napa brand? And would bigger be better ? Could I make up a 10 -12 gauge? And I'm having trouble posting my comments! I push the post reply and it seems like it will not post and then again sometimes it will!
 
#9 ·
The ring terminals will fit on the ford coil but I'm putting a MSD street coil on today, I also done the Same thing to my 1982 F800 429CID no trouble so far , it had the duraspark || ignition ! The carb had been changed on it and I let several drive it and I paid for that to they broke a rod from over revving the engine it did not have a govern control since the carburetor had been replaced oh well lesson learned , other reason I put the MSD on cause of the rev limiter!
 
#15 ·
ford carbs has the venturi size on the left side behind the pump pull rod.. usually upside down.. 1.02 , 1.06, 1.08, 1.12, 1.16, 1.23, 1.28 and the hard to find 1.32.. putting on a 1.02 or 1.06 will prevent over revving.. it will also assist in preventing some of the overspeed during engine braking situations..

i would think that you might. just possibly.. if engine braking is done to prevent run aways... DEDENBEAR Throttle Stops-Baseplate Style

hint... wire this into the perhaps equipped.. over rev light.. you probably have a 2 barrel.. so you might end up using this flipped backwards with some creative spacers for the rear ... or maybe they can carve one out..

as for what RPMs to set the rev limiter.. i really don't have that.. that info might be listed in a proper ford truck manual.. but i am not sure..

are you going to bend up a custom lock thick metal padlock hasp to prevent the removal of the RPM plug.. without drilling into the case of the MSD.. some components may be fastened to the case inside.. it is a heat sink..


you will want to properly JET the carb if you are using ford carbs.. you will need to have a muffler shop install an oxygen sensor bung in the down pipe so you can use an oxygen sensor.. and a air fuel ratio display to tune the carb under DRIVING conditions so you don't lean out the motor and melt the motor..

describe which carbs you are using..


i don't know if exhaust brakes would work well for engine braking without serious issues.. or if you could just use an exhaust cut out to a restrictor ..

one would need to make sure that the exhaust manifold faces were properly surfaced.. i have a shop in LA that still has its wet belt surfacer.. but on the donut flange seat.. i go in with my 1/4" die grinder with a rounded tree shape carbide cutter and freehand the manifold seat back to shape.. using a new donut to pick out high spots..

Before http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/exhaustflangebefore_zpsfba5c149.jpg

after. http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/exhaustflangeafter_zps5e3c7504.jpg

the mating surface.. this is a 429 SCJ exhaust manifold that previous techs put 460 exhaust gaskets on again and again.. they blew out in 50 miles..

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/exhaustmanifoldafter_zps2270e7d6.jpg

you can see the sand paper belt i glued to the piece of plywood in the back ground.. took three of us to hold even pressure on the manifold to sand it that much.. the shop was out of belts.. or i would have taken it there..

http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb476/waynep712/exhaustmanifoldafter_zps2270e7d6.jpg

just found out that hardwood floor sanding machine sandpaper comes in HUGE sheets.. like 15 x24..
 
#10 ·
That brings up this question, what should I set the rev limiter to on both of these engines? 361HD F600 - 429HD F800. The 429 is beefed up it was originally built for a fire truck application I know it has a small dome on the pistons I've seen them unlike the other engine which I assume has the counter sunk pistons! The 429 will rev up about like a race car lol , maybe not like that but it sure does rev faster then any other 2ton truck I've ever had ! Thanks Wayne you sure have been helpful on diagnoseing my problem I will try the stuff you have shared with me I will let you know what I do and the outcome, you have a lot of knowledge that's for sure!
 
#13 ·
like i mentioned above..

the wires in the spark plug separator over the left valve cover should be in this order..

7, 5, 6, 8.

please your pistons and engine life depend on it.. especially with the crazy voltage the MSD system can put out..

see the diagram i posted.. for the stock firing order of all FE motors. and wiring locations.. this does not mean the distributor is installed in the proper direction..
 

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#12 · (Edited)
at NAPA.. the ground strap inside the distributer is a napa LW32

Distributor Lead Wire - Ground LW32
cross numbers 7RA12264, ML290

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...butor-Lead-Wire-Ground/_/R-ECHLW32_0060014302


while there.. the wire from the points to the old coil with the little rubber boot is a Napa LW40
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...utor-Lead-Wire-Primary/_/R-ECHLW40_0059617453

Distributor Lead Wire - Primary
12337045, 19112974, C7AZ12216A,
C7AZ12216B, C7DF12216A,
C7DZ12216A, C7TF12216A,
C7TZ12216A, C7VF12216A,
C7VY12216A, C7VY12216F, DW31,
DW34, DW35, F1205
Ford...............................................74-67
Ford Truck......................................77-65
 
#14 ·
I pulled the vacuum line off and it doesn't miss, but it will still advance the timing around 6 degrees with no vacuum line! With the vacuum line on it will advance to around 40-50 degrees, that's a guess because my numbers just go to 30 on the harmonic balancer ! What should the total timing be after the advance the initial timing is 6 degrees!
 
#16 ·
At some point it bears mentioning that the StreetFire is an offshore sourced MSD unit.

May I ask why you're using the MSD box on the skidder? are you trying to fix a problem, or an output issue or something?

The reason I ask is, that may be an underlying condition that is manifesting itself.

Can you easily bypass the MSD box and see if it clears your problem up?

We used to handle gearbox parts for T-J a long long time ago. Lots of those old 420A's still soldiering on.
 
#17 ·
I'm not using the MSD on the skidder , it has a Diesel engine, the MSD's went on the 361 and 429 , the miss in the 361 is in the distributor I pull the vacuum line off and it does not miss but it will still advance the timing when I rev the engine, why will it do that? the brakes and the exhaust are fine no trouble there
 
#20 ·
this is the type of chart i am talking about.. but i don't have any truck manuals currently..

this is from a 1963 galaxy manual section i have

you can see that distributor specs jump all over the place..

the point gap and dwell vary according to the distributor..

to understand the galaxy chart.. lets look at the lower 390 automatic version . this is WRONG for your truck.. this is just how to read it.. guess what. with an adjustable advance timing light and a tachometer you can find out where you are at.

note your base timing.
you can see that the centrifical has
325 rpms mechanical Zero advance and begins to move at
400, .5 to 1.25 degree..
500, 3.5 to 4.5
600, 5 to 6
2000 10.75 to 12.25
these are measured with the vacuum advance disconnected and increasing the engine speed.. while charting each 100 to 200 rpm increase..

with a hand vacuum pump.. at idle.. note the base timing..
at 6 inches of vacuum the advance should start to move... 0 to 2.5
at 10 inches of vacuum the advance should have increased 4 to 7 degrees
at 15 inches of vacuum the advance should have increased 5.5 to 8.5 degrees..

at 20 you should have max 8.5

you can do two charts to see where you are at.. it will take about 10 minutes to do this so you can see your current advance curve..

if you want to talk about this i can PM you my phone number..

its NOT hard to do.. the hard thing might be to get a similar chart to the galaxy chart above for your FT motor.. it will be in the factory service manuals and some of the earlier chiltons tune up manuals.. they took it out of the reprints as far as i know... somebody did not know how important those numbers were.. if there is a distributor tag still on your distributor.. that might help..
 

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#21 ·
I'm a little lost with all the timing charts, all I know is the engine I'm working on is advancing to 40-50 degree , I do believe that is way to high ! What would cause it to advance that much? Could the breaker plate be that wore ? I have not replaced it yet or could it be the distributor shaft bearing wore? Would that cause it to advance? I could just get a new distributor , that would solve both my problems as far as the wear in the distributor .
 
#22 ·
Ok I think I get it! I have a adjustable timing light, it also has the RPM on it I understand now what your talking about I will give it a try! if I set my timing light to around 30 degrees and throttle up the engine I will be able to tell how much it is advancing? I will also try to find out what the total advance should be for my application!
 
#23 ·
start with a blank page..

note the base timing with the adjustable set to zero.. and then adjust the timing light to bring the marks to zero.. that number.. write it down.

next line.. disconnect the vacuum advance..
slowly increase the engine speed..

when your timing as moved 1 degree.. note the RPMS...
when it has move 3 degrees note the Rpms
when it has moved 5 degrees note the RPMs..
when it has moved 8 degrees note the RPMs..
when it has moved 10 degrees note the RPM..

continue every 2 or 3 degrees... and note the maximum amount it will advance with the the vacuum advance disconnected..

try to note the RPMS at which it stops moving..

this will take you 4 or 5 minutes..

start another page..

engine idling.. vacuum advance hooked to your hand vacuum pump.. or with a vacuum gauge tee'd in.. and you sucking on the end of the hose..

note the rpms.. note the base timing on this page.. do not change the engine speed.. leave it idling.

start applying vacuum till the timing starts to advance.. note the vacuum reading..

from that increase it 2 inches of vacuum at a time and note the amount of advance.

you can ZERO the timing light to get rid of base timing.. note that number..

so. vacuum .. where it starts to move..

every 2 inches of vacuum increase on the gauge gets you how much at the crank damper..

try to be fast.. you can put the engine into detonation doing this..

could you get another FT distributor.. they are DIFFERENT than the FE on most models..

the FT distributor shaft is larger where it engages with the Oil pump drive shaft.. and where it goes thru the block below the distributor gear..

you usually Cannot use a FE distributor in an FT truck motor..

you can.. usually... rob a duraspark distributor of its upper shaft by pulling the felt and the wire retaining wire.. to get the upper shaft off.. .. the breaker plates for the electronic.. the upper shafts.. will also fit the FT distributors.. this gives you a magnetic pickup style..

the issue.. the advance springs.. the limit slots... if you ever had the breaker plate off a motorcraft/autolite V8 distributor.. you could see the advance weights and springs... at the sides of the plate you will see a } { shape.. each side is different.. there are a bunch of different versions. this limits the amount of mechanical advance.. there is as top tab that rides between the ears on one end.. some come with a rubber hose section to reduce the amount of mechanical advance even more.. trying to find one that is the same or really close to what you have or what the engine calls for.. can be next to impossible..

now.. do you see a square opening in the lower breaker plate.. if you slowly rotated the engine .. you would see the tabs that the advance springs are on.. you can adjust the tension by bending those with a screw driver slightly to change the advance curve verses RPM.. warning.. one of those springs will be slack slightly.. that is the secondary advance spring. it will be thicker wire as its designed to hold the second weight in at higher RPMs.. the primary spring works the first weight so you get early and late action on the rotation of the upper distributor shaft..

you can use some decent brand / goodyear or gates vacuum hose over the tab that rides between the advance limit slots..

if you look at the vacuum advance. .some are marked with how many degrees they will move.. some have an allen set screw accessed thru the middle to change the spring tension.. to adjust the vacuum to advance curve.. this does not limit the advance.. the slot the rod comes up thru limits the vacuum advance.. again . you can use a piece of vacuum hose.. or a brass tubing section over it to limit the vacuum advance movement.


for some reason i missed your reply this morning.. hmm..
sending my phone number if you need to talk..
 
#24 ·
I have adjusted the vacuum diaphragm, it was screwed all the way in making the arm that's hooked to the points plate easy to pull, I counted the rounds out were the arm was tight then i set the diaphragm to the middle settings cranked the engine and it would not run good with the vacuum hose on I would take it off and it would run fine I guess right now at this stage I will just leave it unhooked till I can work on it some more the short days and trying to make some cash I don't have Time to work on it but I will try what you have suggested thanks
 
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