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Old 06-09-2005, 06:00 PM
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377 stroker

can any tell me the advantages of a 377 cid ? 400 SBC With a 350 Crank ? what CC heads ? this rap high enough that it needs forged interds ? sounds interesting, a 377 would be similar to 327 with 283 crank witch = a 302
huh ? does a 377 have a short stroke that raps faster ? or a longer stroke from 350 crank ? 377 has longer rods or shorter rods than a 350 ?

is there more machine work on the 400 block than there is on building a 350 10.25:1 CR ? what RPMs does a 377 turn ?

so a 350 crank in 400 block, different rods than the stock 5.7" 350 rods ? is there more machine work ? so there is a spacer / thicker main bearings in 400 block to run a 350 crank ? what CR we talking ? what for heads them 76cc ?

I Guess I'm Real Curious about the 377


can parts be bought for as cheap or close to same money as the 350 with the 10.25:1 CR from like northern auto parts ?

and a 10.25:1 CR 350 with 76cc Heads was not lookin bad money wise,

Thanks


Mustangsaly

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Old 06-09-2005, 06:24 PM
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the shorter stroke of the 350 allows the engine to rev faster as there is less rotational inertia. It also is easier on rods and pistons as velocity is decreased at equal RPMs and also has less side load on the cylinder walls.
Tq is decreased as there are less overall cubes and less mechanical advantage/leverage on the crank centerline..
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Old 06-09-2005, 07:46 PM
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not a whole lot of advantage to that motor on the street. a similarly built 400 will make more torque, more HP at virtually every RPM and blow the doors off the 377 car.

K
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Old 06-09-2005, 11:06 PM
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Killer, I agree and disagree. While if both cars were set up the same (to take advantage of torque) the 400+ engine would win. If everything were eaual you are right the 400 "should" make more power and torque.

Now if both cars were built to make the most out of the engine installed the difference would be MUCH less than you think.

A 377 is an RPM engine, they love to spin. Like most large bore short stroke engines.

I agree with Killer that for a street car they are not the best choice. There is a place for them and I know some people love them. I would take a 383 or 400 over them for a street car.

Royce
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Old 06-10-2005, 12:13 AM
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I think one often overlooked aspect of less cubes turning faster then bigger cu in is the VE go up with rpm on a given motor. In other words, a 500 cu in pro-stocker turning 10,000 rpm will actually ingest more then 500 cu in of air and fuel merely due to the increased velocity in the intake and heads making a ram effect into the cylinder.

So if you took a 377 turning fast enough to get 110% ve, and compare it with a slower turning 400 at 100% ve, the 377 will actually be a bigger motor in terms of flow due to the extra 10% of ve. 377 x 10 % 37.7 or 38 cu in. 377 + 38 = 415 cu in.

Anybody follow that theory of mine? I was following that 427 vs 454 thread and was waiting for someone to point that out but it never was considered in the thread.
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Old 06-10-2005, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 56Maynard
I think one often overlooked aspect of less cubes turning faster then bigger cu in is the VE go up with rpm on a given motor. In other words, a 500 cu in pro-stocker turning 10,000 rpm will actually ingest more then 500 cu in of air and fuel merely due to the increased velocity in the intake and heads making a ram effect into the cylinder.

So if you took a 377 turning fast enough to get 110% ve, and compare it with a slower turning 400 at 100% ve, the 377 will actually be a bigger motor in terms of flow due to the extra 10% of ve. 377 x 10 % 37.7 or 38 cu in. 377 + 38 = 415 cu in.

Anybody follow that theory of mine? I was following that 427 vs 454 thread and was waiting for someone to point that out but it never was considered in the thread.

I can understand your point, but we're taking these non-scientific terms like "RPM engine" and "loves to spin" and trying to tack on a quantitative attribute to them. The problem with both motors is that unless you spend the money on internals, you're not going to run more than 5500RPM. A 350 CID chevy motor with stock internals is about a 5500 RPM redline motor. Why then, would a 377 with the same stroke be able to rev any better? A 377 with some high buck internals will probably be nicely efficient at a higher RPM, because of the large over-square. The issue is that stock rods are going to stretch above 5500 or 6000 on a regular basis, not to mention the fact that those big 400 CID slugs on the end of them weigh more than a normal 350 slug does. So now you're talking high dollar rods, a big cam and some upper-end heads to make your 110% VE at 6700RPM. Furthermore, to do that you've lost a bunch of power between 0 and 3000 RPM and your motor is basically a race-only setup.

So I guess what I'm getting at is not only is a 400 a better overall choice, but dollar for dollar if you want to start spending money on internals and give the 400 a bullet-proof bottom end like the 377 will need, you'll see the difference even more.

K
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Old 06-10-2005, 10:31 AM
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Killer i see your point but, I think you are assuming a few things and missing the point. 56Maynard put it VERY well. I agree 100%

I don't think you would go through the hassle of building a 377 if you weren't going to spin it. If not why even build it. Stock rods will take MUCH more punishment than people give them credit for. A cast crank and stock rods will spin 6500 and live. By making the stroke shorter that even gives them more RPM potential. You would not build a 377 with the same parts used in a low RPM 400. That doesn't mean either is better, that just means they are different. As I have always said (along with others) it ALL depends on the combination and the intended use.

If what you say was cut and dry, no small block would ever be able to beat a big block, PERIOD. I have put a lot of big blocks on the trailer with my small block (even before it was blown). There is more to making a car go fast than cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more POTENTIAL you have to go fast or make power. It doesn't mean the bigger engine always DOES make more power or go faster.

Now if you want to start putting limitations on it, like below X RPM then things change. He didn't say which engine would be better under 5500, by nature the 377 is not going to compare to a 400 in that situation (if built the same).

I also agreed that the 377 is not the best street engine in most cases. Though if you put it in a nice stick car with a 6speed and steep gears and you would have a blast driving it. This is where the whole combination things comes up. Put that low RPM 400 in that same car and I'd take the 377 over it anyday. The 400 would be like driving a tractor. (get my point?).

Finally he was not asking if a 377 was "better" than a 400 he was just trying to get info on a 377.

Royce
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Old 06-10-2005, 10:54 AM
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My theory shoulda been qualified with a great big "In general" but yeah internals will definately make differences in reliability/safety in the upper rpm ranges. I just kinda tossed it out there for discussion.

Personally, I've spun the same cast crank to 7300 rpm reliably for 3 seasons straight but definately dont/wont recommend the use of em up there for obvious reasons. The availabilty of all the cheap aftermarket cranks nowdays dont justify the danger messing with stuff like that.

Please dont anyone attempt this 7300 stuff based on what I got away with years ago. It just too damned easy to drive in your own oil and hurt yourself or the other guy in the other lane.
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Old 06-10-2005, 02:50 PM
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i ran a build on my desktop dyno and was very surprised at the results.i ran a 406 block with 327 crank with original 327/365 ,302/290 cam as they are the same,with most of the build i have on a 406 that i have, making about 450/460 with iron heads and 11-1when i was using it.the result was 511/6500 rpm and 443 torque at 5000 rpm.it still had 280 h.p. at 9500 rpm.it was best mid-upper range.thats a motor.
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Old 06-10-2005, 03:34 PM
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i was talking to a friend and he brought up the 377, i was Curious about it, thanks guys i learned something from everyone. and will prob build 350 not a 377. but thanks 4 everyones input


GoneNova/406,
would you run my 350 build on your desktop dyno ? what all do you need to figure out my HP & Torq ?


Mustangsaly
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Old 06-10-2005, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaroman7d
Killer i see your point but, I think you are assuming a few things and missing the point. 56Maynard put it VERY well. I agree 100%

I don't think you would go through the hassle of building a 377 if you weren't going to spin it. If not why even build it. Stock rods will take MUCH more punishment than people give them credit for. A cast crank and stock rods will spin 6500 and live. By making the stroke shorter that even gives them more RPM potential. You would not build a 377 with the same parts used in a low RPM 400. That doesn't mean either is better, that just means they are different. As I have always said (along with others) it ALL depends on the combination and the intended use.

If what you say was cut and dry, no small block would ever be able to beat a big block, PERIOD. I have put a lot of big blocks on the trailer with my small block (even before it was blown). There is more to making a car go fast than cubic inches. The more cubic inches you have, the more POTENTIAL you have to go fast or make power. It doesn't mean the bigger engine always DOES make more power or go faster.

Now if you want to start putting limitations on it, like below X RPM then things change. He didn't say which engine would be better under 5500, by nature the 377 is not going to compare to a 400 in that situation (if built the same).

I also agreed that the 377 is not the best street engine in most cases. Though if you put it in a nice stick car with a 6speed and steep gears and you would have a blast driving it. This is where the whole combination things comes up. Put that low RPM 400 in that same car and I'd take the 377 over it anyday. The 400 would be like driving a tractor. (get my point?).

Finally he was not asking if a 377 was "better" than a 400 he was just trying to get info on a 377.

Royce


Well I guess we can just agree to disagree. I'm sure in some circles in which CID is a limiting factor you would be better off with a 377, but dollar for dollar you'll always have a better chance with more cubes. I"m sure you've put some big blocks on the trailer with your smallblock, but that's really an exception to the rule. The whole reason people build bigblock motors is that they need the cubes, and its the oldest trick in the book, because it always works! Dollar for dollar, you'll nearly always be ahead with a 400.

Furthermore, I did get the impression that he sort-of asked which was "better" than the other, because he asked of the "advantages" of building a 377. Given that you can spend extra money making it into a 377 or just build a 400, the advantages in nearly any situation are voided. That's my point.
K
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Old 06-10-2005, 05:52 PM
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The advantages that most are missing is the longevity at RPM and the Tq multiplication one can ultilize by having lower gears with the higher RPM engine.
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Old 06-10-2005, 06:17 PM
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Killer,
You are still missing the point. Not a big deal. Just don't want you to think I am blowing smoke. There are a LOT of slow big blocks out there and plenty of slow small blocks as well. If both engine are built to the hilt and are making maximum HP then you are right the larger engine has the advantage. The truth of the matter is, most of the cars on the street are not "maxed" out. Most of the cars at the track fit that description too (on average Joe night). This is the difference. You are asuming an optimized 400 against an average 377 in that case you are right. You said yourself max rpm or 5500, I'll give you your 400 with 5500RPM max and take a 327 that has no rpm "limit" attached and blow the doors off the 400. I used that as an example to make my point. Once again it's all about combination, it's that simple. If you build the car to make the most of the 400 and it's torque it will be a heck of a car, the same can be said for a 377 with it's rpm and HP. With the few details that were provided there is just no way you can say which engine is best for his situation. There are very few substitutes to cubic inches but there are a few.

By saying the 400 is only good to 5500rpm you are saying, it is a very mild build (far from maxed out). With that said a slightly more "maxed" out smaller engine will be just as good if not better.

Once again I am not pushing the 377 and I personally see few applications that I would build one for (one being a stick car with steep gears, pro touring type car).

If you have the choice between a 350 and a 377 build the 377, it will make more power and RPM better than the 350, it's a win win situation. I would take a 383 or 400 over a 350 any day of the week, for all different applications.

Royce
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Old 06-10-2005, 06:53 PM
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yep, I understand your point very well. The issue that you have is that you're saying maximum possible intake flow is not dictated only by CID (lets leave ports, valves and cam etc out of this and assume they're all optimized for the application) but also RPM. That I agree with. If you have a 500 CID motor that can only turn 3500 RPM and a 350 that can turn 7500, you'll have your day with the 350, assuming, again, that other variables don't hinder you (traction etc etc).

I definitely don't think you're blowing smoke, I just think perhaps I never communicated my opinion/point as well as I wanted to! I respect your opinion, Royce.

I also have an issue with the term "maxed out." Holding CID constant (say 377 and 400) you would have to arbitrarily dictate an RPM point at which you would say that each motor, as defined probably by aftermarket availability, is "maxed out." I personally know a guy who has a 434 stroker smallblock who's setup is built to 7400 RPM with a stock block (see 1BAD80). 400's can spin if you spend the money on them.

So what this whole issue comes down to is this: does the shorter stroke and over-square characteristic of the 377 reduce the stress on the internals (piston acceleration/velocity) to a degree that in any situation it is more practical to build than a 400 in terms of the maximum airflow each motor can produce at its maximum "safe" RPM as defined by a parts setup that costs the same for each motor? My point is that I don't think so, and I also don't think that a stock 350 chevy will spin 6500 RPM. Not for long anyway. Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, the slugs on the end of those rods are heavier than the original 350 slugs, because they're bigger. Lastly, even if you do think you can make a few passes at 6500, is it really practial to stretch those stock parts right to their limit, hoping that you never ever miss a shift and stick it to 6800 one time? I just think its a lot to bank on...

ANyway, fun discussion. Good points-

K
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Old 06-10-2005, 07:43 PM
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I'd like to add to the discussion.

1. If a guy had a 400 block and a 350 crank laying around it would make perfect sense to put the two of them together. If he needed something to occupy his time.

2. When the machine shops in your area lack the capacity to provide proper machine work it makes sense to use a crankshaft that will require no special work to be done on the rods for them to clear the oil pan, block and camshaft. That is if you have hefty rods with large bolts.

3. In spite of the fact that I own two 400s, and love the torque, I really like to hear short stroke engines scream in a 4-speed car.

Larry
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