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Old 11-19-2008, 02:37 PM
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3800 Supercharged engine swap in 55 F100

I am a new kid on the block here looking for some info on GM FWD engines & RWD Transmissions.I have a 1955 F100 that I want to install a Series 2 3800 Supercharged V6 into.I have done some research on this compatability but still am not 100% convinced on the mating of these components. First of all, I have found out the FWD 3800's have the 60 degree Metric bolt pattern.Is that correct??Second,if this is true, will a 700r4 from behind a 2.8 S10 bolt up to this???Is the starter location correct??Third,from what I have found,a 200r4 has a dual bolt pattern bellhousing that fits both motors.Is this correct???Is the starter location a issue with these.I know there is alot of knowledge on this site & I hope you guys can help me out on this.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:45 PM
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I don't believe the FWD 3800's are 60 V6 patterns, ony the RWD versions were. So you'll need a RWD block.
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:21 PM
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Does anyone else have some input on this.I believe all the GM Metric bolt patterns are the same whether they are FWD or RWD.
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Old 11-20-2008, 07:59 PM
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no, the bellhousing patterns are NOT the same.
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Old 11-20-2008, 08:18 PM
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Ap72 you are correct with that.the FWD & RWD Bellhousing patterns are not the same.As I understand,the RWD has the BOP pattern while the FWD has the Metric bolt pattern.Correct???With that in mind the 700r4s from behind 2.8 S10's should fit??? Also the 200r4's with the dual bolt pattern should then fit
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:29 AM
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I am also thinking about this swap
Supercharged 3800 swap
Shane
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:36 AM
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The RWD 2.8's, 3.1's 3,8's and so on share the "metric bolt pattern" more commonly called the 60V6 pattern FWD cars do not have this pattern.

BOP is a whole other animal.
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Old 11-21-2008, 07:24 PM
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This is what I have found on GM bellhousing patterns,as listed below.From what all the sites are telling me a FWD 3800 is a 90 degree style of engine with a 60 degree bellhousing pattern,which is the same as the 2.8's.
Didn't the RWD 2.8's in S10's have 200r4's or 700r4's in them???Some 200r4 have dual bolt patterns. Does anyone know what they are???

-----This is taken from shaw.ca

GM Small Corporate Pattern(Metric) Used on Chevy 60 degree V6's, 4 cylinders and other FWD engines
2.0L (OHV I4), 2.2L (OHV I4), 2.5L (OHV "Iron Duke" I4), 2.8L (60* V6), 3.0L (90* V6), 3.1L & 3100 (60* V6), 3.3L & 3300 (90* V6), 3.4 & 3400 (60* V6), 3500 (60* V6), 3.6L (60* V6), 3800 (90*V6), 3.9L (60* V6), 4.1L V8, 4.5L V8, 4.9L V8

--------This is taken from Wikipedia:

GM metric pattern

Also called the GM small corporate pattern
This pattern has a distinctive odd-sided hexagonal shape.

GM 60 V6 family FWD/RWD V6; 2.8/3.1/3.4 L
Buick FWD/RWD 90 3800 V6
Cadillac 4.1/4.5/4.9 L V8
Isuzu 3.5L DOHC V6
1984-03 Jeep/AMC/Chrysler 2.5L/150 in I4 found in Jeep Cherokee, Wagoneer, Comanche, and Wrangler models (except Grand Wagoneer & Grand Cherokee) and 1996-2002 Dodge Dakotas.
Jeep/AMC 2.8L V6 (GM engine)
GM Iron Duke FWD inline 4
1984-93 GM Iron Duke/Tech-4 RWD inline 4

-----This is from TLC Parts & Service:

Chevy 90 degree V6: This block can either be the 3.8 (229) or 4.3 V6. These engines are identical to the Chevy V8 application with reference to bellhousing, starter, and flywheel.

Chevy 60 degree V6: This is the 2.8L V6 used in S10s and Jeep Cherokees. This bellhousing bolt pattern is completely different than the 90 degree Chevy bolt pattern. GM automatics that have this bolt pattern will not bolt to the 90 degree blocks.

Buick V6: Buick used two different bolt patterns like the engines listed above. The 225, 231, and 3.8L (rear wheel drive vehicle) all used the standard Buick bolt pattern(BOP).Engine blocks like the 3.8L transverse (front wheel drive vehicle) have the same bolt pattern as the Chevy 2.8L V6.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
The RWD 2.8's, 3.1's 3,8's and so on share the "metric bolt pattern" more commonly called the 60V6 pattern FWD cars do not have this pattern.

BOP is a whole other animal.
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. The FWD 3800SC uses the same GM metric bolt pattern as the other FWD 3800s and the 60 degree V6s. This same FWD block was used in RWD F-body applications. The RWD 2.8 motors also used the same bolt pattern in S-10s and F-bodies. You can bolt these V6 700R4 transmissions to the FWD 3800 (including the SC). Note that the throttle body on the supercharger will hang over the bellhousing and will require a large cutout in the firewall to clear. This swap has been done to at least one G-body car.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:11 PM
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Hmmm...
What about the Buick Grand Nationals?
They used a TURBO 3.8L and were RWD ... weren't they?

BTW, that supercharged V6 will be a really cool little powerplant for a hot-rod.
They are 240 HP in stock trim ... more than an early-80's 302 HO, and they deliver excellent fuel mileage, too.

There are plenty of speed parts available for that little mill as well, BUT they aren't cheap! (Actually, it looks like prices have come down a fair amount)

PFYC

Last edited by 66GMC; 11-21-2008 at 08:21 PM.
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 66GMC
Hmmm...
What about the Buick Grand Nationals?
They used a TURBO 3.8L and were RWD ... weren't they?
Yes. The GN motors used the older style 3.8 liter block with the BOP bellhousing. The supercharged motors use the newer 3800 style block with the metric bellhousing. Yes, the boosted motors use different block castings from the N/A motors, but the architecture is the same.
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_padavano
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. The FWD 3800SC uses the same GM metric bolt pattern as the other FWD 3800s and the 60 degree V6s. This same FWD block was used in RWD F-body applications. The RWD 2.8 motors also used the same bolt pattern in S-10s and F-bodies. You can bolt these V6 700R4 transmissions to the FWD 3800 (including the SC). Note that the throttle body on the supercharger will hang over the bellhousing and will require a large cutout in the firewall to clear. This swap has been done to at least one G-body car.
From my understanding the starter is on the oposite side from RWD to FWD. If I'm wrong please correct me, but this is everywhere I look.
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Old 11-23-2008, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
From my understanding the starter is on the oposite side from RWD to FWD. If I'm wrong please correct me, but this is everywhere I look.
Where is "everywhere"?

Just so we're all clear, let's try a few definitions. Let's stop referring to FWD and RWD and instead use 3.8 liter and 3800 Series II, since these are the differences in the block architecture. The older 3.8 liter block used the BOP bolt pattern. This motor comes from the original 198 cu in version that Buick released in 1961 and was used in both traditional RWD and longitudinal FWD applications (think early 80s Riviera or Toronado). This is the block architecture used on the turbo Buick motors. Then there's the 3800 Series II motor. That block uses the metric bolt pattern (same as the 60 degree V6 family) and while the 3800 is primarily used in transverse FWD applications, it was also used in fourth gen F-body cars in a RWD application. Just so we're completely clear, the fourth gen F-body cars used the 3800 Series II block with the metric bolt pattern in a RWD application. The 3800SC block uses THE SAME bellhousing bolt pattern as all other 3800 Series II blocks. Ergo, the 3800SC bolts to the same transmissions as the normally aspirated 3800 Series II motors and the 60 degree V6 family.

As for starter location, why does this even matter? The starter bolts to the block. The trans doesn't care. As an example, the 200-4R (with unisex bellhousing) bolts to all traditional GM RWD engines (Chevy and BOP bolt patterns) and accommodates starters on either side (Chevy and Buick on the RH, Olds and Pontiac on the LH). The 700R4 and 4L60 both have integral bellhousings and the bottom part of the bellhousing is open (like the TH400 or TH350) so starter clearance is a non-issue. The 4L60E (as used in the F-body cars with the 3800 Series II) do have a full bellhousing, but again this bellhousing already bolts to the 3800 block. Note that the V6 input shaft is different from the V8 input shaft on these transmissions, but it's an easy swap.

Finally, check out www.fullthrottlev6.com for more info. There are at least two F-body cars on that site with the 3800SC installed using the 4L60E and the stock bellhousing. Can we put this to rest once and for all now?
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Old 11-23-2008, 04:04 PM
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I did some research on the 3800 supercharged and everywhere i looked said taht the camaro and the 3800SC blocks were different. I have not tried to do thi swap myself as I decided to just go with a 3.4L but that is waht I have read. and that was from people who raced them.

Again, if someone actaully has done this swap please correct me, I may decide to do it someday and woul dhate to go through unneeded expense.

the 2.8/3.1/3.4 do have different bellhousing patterns between FWD and RWD. the 3800 I have not done myself so I can only report what I have read.

Oh, and putting a 3800SC top end on a 3.8L camaro is actaully a VERY common swap in v6 racing.
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Old 11-23-2008, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
I did some research on the 3800 supercharged and everywhere i looked said taht the camaro and the 3800SC blocks were different.
You might want to do some research here:

http://www.turbobuick.com/forums/gen...-national.html

From one post in that thread:

Quote:
Just for reference, all 1995-up 3800 Series 2 blocks are the same regardless if they came in a FWD or RWD car, were supercharged or not. The differences in engines is between the SC and N/A models' internal parts and heads, and I will explain them below...
It's a lengthy thread with direct input from several people who have performed this swap. Also, the 3800SC was factory installed in the RWD Holden Commodore (the new GTO body) using the 4L60E by GM of Australia.

Last edited by joe_padavano; 11-23-2008 at 07:15 PM.
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