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Old 01-02-2009, 06:37 AM
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383 Build up....Roller vs. Mechanical

I hope I am posting this in the correct forum. Currently I am running a 350 and I've been planning a rebuild for this summer. I have already purchased:


AFR 195 Eliminator Heads,
Victor Jr. Intake #2999,
Lunati .276/.520 110* LS .241@.050
H860CP Speed Pro Hyper Coated Skirt Pistons 10.6 compression with 64cc head
Crane Energizer 1.6 roller rockers

I've also purchased all my Felpro gaskets, ARP fasteners, Holley 750, and some other goodies.

I am looking at buying either a Scat or Eagle crank and rods(5.7). I currently have some shorty hedman headers for my '82 Z28(thinking of going to 1 3/4 long, pretty pricey ) and a true dual 3" with FM 40's and X pipe.

So here is my quandry, I went with the solid cam because of the slower ramp rates of the hyra. flat tappet. So even with me already spending the $$ on the Voodoo cam(I can always sell it), bang for the buck would I get that much more out of the roller to make it worth the change in springs, push rods and cam kit?

I've already got alot of $$ tied up in the build and want to be sure that I would be happy with the change before I tie up another $800 in my valve train.

I appreciate any help or recommendations I can get...

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Last edited by Steel; 01-02-2009 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:15 AM
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If you don't mind adjusting a solid fat tappet valvetrain every 3 oil changes then its a better deal than a hyd. roller. You can move to a solid roller too, but with AFR195's there's not much merit in it. Those are usually for valve lifts above .600"- which aren't typically seen as street driven daily driver type cars.

I would go with the solid flat and not worry about it. EDM lifters will help prolong cam life and I suggest looking into them, they also help prolong the need for lash adjustments.
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Old 01-02-2009, 07:39 AM
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Good deal, that's what I was hoping for I have no problem adjusting my valve lash, especially since it will be nowhere near a daily driver.

As far as the solid roller I doubt seriously I am going to run any higher lift rates than that of which I have right now. The AFR's are set up to .600 and my current setup with 1.6 will leave me somewhere around the .550 mark which is plenty. I'm just looking for a mean, streetable engine that may occasionally see Norwalk........Now who knows what the future holds

I'll see how this build goes, then I'm thinking about doing alittle more research and put together a 434 or something of that nature.

I'll be looking into those EDM lifters also, thanks for the info
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:04 AM
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Under 6000 rpm's, a high-rise dual-plane intake will make more hp and torque throughout the range than a single-plane intake.
Edelbrock RPM
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap
Professional Products Typhoon intake, #52021 ($130 on ebay) P.P. Crosswind Air Gap, #52026 ($170 on ebay).
AFR Street Pro-Flow RPM #5028
Weiand Stealth
Weiand Stealth Air Strike
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Old 01-02-2009, 11:22 AM
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Hmmmm.....I just happen to have a Weiand Stealth intake bolted up on my current engine. Always did like those intakes as I've used them several different times with good results. I hadn't planned on experimenting with both on the setup but I may just do that. I was always under the assumption(you know what they say about that) that with the dual plane I would have better low end HP and Torque and lose a little in the mid to high end of the bandwidth. And the single plane would make up for the low end loss in the mid and high end.

Well that's why these boards are so awesome, I have learned more here just by reading over the last few months than I could have with trial and error. Not to mention a hell of a lot cheaper too!!

Thanks guys...
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Old 01-02-2009, 12:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
I hope I am posting this in the correct forum. Currently I am running a 350 and I've been planning a rebuild for this summer. I have already purchased:


AFR 195 Eliminator Heads,
Victor Jr. Intake #2999,
Lunati .276/.520 110* LS .241@.050
H860CP Speed Pro Hyper Coated Skirt Pistons 10.6 compression with 64cc head
Crane Energizer 1.6 roller rockers

I've also purchased all my Felpro gaskets, ARP fasteners, Holley 750, and some other goodies.

I am looking at buying either a Scat or Eagle crank and rods(5.7). I currently have some shorty hedman headers for my '82 Z28(thinking of going to 1 3/4 long, pretty pricey ) and a true dual 3" with FM 40's and X pipe.

So here is my quandry, I went with the solid cam because of the slower ramp rates of the hyra. flat tappet. So even with me already spending the $$ on the Voodoo cam(I can always sell it), bang for the buck would I get that much more out of the roller to make it worth the change in springs, push rods and cam kit?

I've already got alot of $$ tied up in the build and want to be sure that I would be happy with the change before I tie up another $800 in my valve train.
I appreciate any help or recommendations I can get...


Sorry I missed you said 383.

Whichever way you go, you are going to have to spend a lot of bucks for a high rpm valvetrain, all the way from valves on out.
Make sure that bottom end can take the regular abuse.

Sure lesser parts might work for a while, but

failure usually comes unexpectedly, suddenly, and spectacularly, and definitely expensively.

I suggest you rethink your goals, $$$, and parts list.

If you have to adjust your valve train as often as suggested, to me that means that you have some really cheapo parts. Where is the wear coming from?
If it were mine, I would be using a hyd cam, and I would back down on the cam and intake manifold, and up the carb to an AED. Call them for recommendations.
As is, it doesn't look like something that I would want to drive on the street very often.
JMO after 4 decades of this.

Last edited by ScoTFrenzel; 01-02-2009 at 12:27 PM.
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:09 PM
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As it sits right now the AFR 195's are what I'm using as they are paid for and on their way to my here as I type this. Everything I have listed are pieces that I have or are being shipped to my house, with the exception of the lower internals. I have been looking and it seems as though the Scat or Eagle forged cranks and rods may be my best bet unless I wanna drive down the road and have a custom Callies grind which I'm sure would be hands down better than either of those previously mentioned, but would also come with a larger dent in the wallet.

I noticed the underline in the quote.....That $800 was me referring to the cam, roller lifters, springs, and push rods. Not the entire valve train. I guess I should have said additional $800.....
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Old 01-02-2009, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
As it sits right now the AFR 195's are what I'm using as they are paid for and on their way to my here as I type this. Everything I have listed are pieces that I have or are being shipped to my house, with the exception of the lower internals. I have been looking and it seems as though the Scat or Eagle forged cranks and rods may be my best bet unless I wanna drive down the road and have a custom Callies grind which I'm sure would be hands down better than either of those previously mentioned, but would also come with a larger dent in the wallet.
IMO, for your application Callies rods are a waste of money. They would not be better, they would be overkill. Save your money.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:07 PM
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I pretty much figured as much with the Callies internals. Right now Eagle or Scat forged for the crank is the way I'll be going.

What do you guys think about for the rods? H-beam or course would be the strongest route, but do you think that a good I-beam would be ok for my set-up?

It's always hard to know when your just starting out with something like this, there is so much to learn and research and then you still don't know how much of the details are just marketing half-truths to sell a certain product..........
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
1. If you don't mind adjusting a solid fat tappet valvetrain every 3 oil changes then its a better deal than a hyd. roller.

2.You can move to a solid roller too, but with AFR195's there's not much merit in it.
1. I agree

2. I hear people say that a lot, but I never bought into that philosophy, simply because with the roller lifter and a mild street grind, you can still open and close the valve a lot faster than a flat tappet can, due to the roller geometry AND the ability to run a stiffer spring with the roller. Since you can open and close the valve faster you can keep it open longer, and flow air into the cylinder for a longer duration of time. Therefore, regardless of the cylinder head runner size, you can still get more air in.

at least that's my take

My advise would be a hydraulic roller. Taking valve covers off a street car is for the birds.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steel
What do you guys think about for the rods? H-beam or course would be the strongest route, but do you think that a good I-beam would be ok for my set-up?
Scat says that their I-beams with the 7/16" bolts are good to 650hp, granted thats not the best way to look at it, but for a street engine that'd be my pick. They are also lighter than most H-beams, and a lot easier on the wallet.
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Old 01-02-2009, 02:48 PM
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650HP? I don't think I'll have to worry about seeing that number anytime soon I'll have to look at those, I'm sure I can find a package from Scat with the crank and rods. Thanks for the info.......
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Old 01-02-2009, 03:37 PM
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I'm using Scat on my 427 and I don't sit around and worry about them breaking.

Keep this in mind.......if they are rated to 650HP, they probably support closer to 800. There is ALWAYS an engineering margin of error in there, and it's typically a whole bunch.

Just get a nice forged set, you'll be fine. I used scat and Mahle for pistons.
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Old 01-02-2009, 09:52 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprinter187
1. I agree

2. I hear people say that a lot, but I never bought into that philosophy, simply because with the roller lifter and a mild street grind, you can still open and close the valve a lot faster than a flat tappet can, due to the roller geometry AND the ability to run a stiffer spring with the roller. Since you can open and close the valve faster you can keep it open longer, and flow air into the cylinder for a longer duration of time. Therefore, regardless of the cylinder head runner size, you can still get more air in.

at least that's my take

My advise would be a hydraulic roller. Taking valve covers off a street car is for the birds.
a mech. flat opens them faster than a hyd. roller, and when you move to a solid roller its hard to find one with less than .600 net lift with any kind of duration, they're largely racing style cams, you also HAVE to run stiffer springs which means more valvetrain wear, and more epensive parts. and possibely more often replacement.

Hyd. rollers are great for a "set it and forget it" approach and live a lond happy wuiet maintenance free life- but they leave power on the table compared to mechanicals and cost more than flatties. If you're really hot street or all out race go mech. roller, thenext step down is mech. flat, then hyd. roller, then hyd. flat. Even hyd. flats are great in certian apps (like lower RPM "torque engines") but i think for this combo and his desires a mech. flat would suit him well. It's just an opinion though.

And yes its a bit on the racy side and will be finicky on the street- but there was a time in every mans life when that's really what he wants. I've had a few cars like that and will build another soon enough and they were all a blast to drive. Had to watch more gauges than a airline pilot, but it was a LOT of fun.
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Old 01-03-2009, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72
And yes its a bit on the racy side and will be finicky on the street- but there was a time in every mans life when that's really what he wants. I've had a few cars like that and will build another soon enough and they were all a blast to drive. Had to watch more gauges than a airline pilot, but it was a LOT of fun.
That is exactly what I was shooting for. I understand that it's not going to be an ideal street machine and I'm OK with that. The extent of this car hitting the street will be an occasional jaunt into town on a Friday or Saturday night.............
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