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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 05-03-2010, 11:44 PM
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typo 650 dp and yeah its for dumbasses but it works for out of the box for the horsepower. never had a problem yet and i have bought 3

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old 05-04-2010, 10:15 AM
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i get your point, but you can't go by the horsepower ratings that will get you in trouble. i've seen a 650DP on a .060 350 = 360ci NA shifting at about 6200rpm pushing a 3200lbs car down the track in high 11's at over 110mph with those number that motor should be putting out about 470+hp but it still only had a 650DP on it, granted the guy who runs that is also "The Guy" to go to about getting your carb just right in this area but it was still just a 650DP

but i understand what you are saying "right out of the box"
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Old 05-04-2010, 08:39 PM
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if i remember correctly the 650 calls for 375-475 or something like that
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  #49 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 01:09 AM
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ok....wow

ok...first of all i know this is old. i ran across this cuz i have some junk layin around (l31 vortec heads, elgin e1091p cam, solid lifters ect. ) and was gonna throw it all on this 86 regular cab one tone dually i have as a shop truck. I was looking for usable power range of the cam since i have a dual plane intake for vortec heads and carb thats good to 5500. I read some posts and had to join the forum just to throw in my 2 cents. so here goes, hopefully i dont offend anyone.
Ok first off...engine selection. this post mentions a guy running 13:1.. i assume your planning on race fuel, if so, rethink that. Methanol is cheaper, runs cooler, and makes more power, esp. on decent compression.
Second...I wont dive to deep into cam selection, however, a good rule of thumb is big valves (means nothing under 1.94 2.02) and decent runner length on your heads. then have the heads flow tested at a reputable shop. and pick your cam to operate with your heads and compression. example: a set of 882 smog heads will only flow to .450 lift. so a cam bigger will be killed by heads. how do i know? i spent thousands of bucks and weeks at my engine builders shop flow bench testing heads.
When picking a cam, contrary to what most will tell u, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin. when u dyno said engine they never ask what car its goin in or what gears it has. Anyone who wants to argue this point needs to call Denny at motor machine and supply in tucson AZ. he is a cam god and laughs when people mention stuff like that. This guy designs cams for almost every high level motorsport there is.
carb selection. alot of this has to do with what fuel you are planning on running, and how crucial tuning is to you. You can buy off the shelf stuff, but remember, these carbs are designed for the masses, not for you and your engine. For tuneability holley is my personal pick, most wheel dyno guys have jet kits and squirters and so on on hand, and parts are easy to change. running gas requires u to stay on top of your jetting and such when ambient temp changes and baro pressure changes. If you decide on meth it is much more forgiving and generally once u pick a decent jet size it is good for a wide range of temps. If you really want an engine to perform, get a carb built for you. I personally went through this. after all the hastle, you will be money and time ahead if you have someone build a carb for your set up. I ran through a few carb hacks before i found kinetic performance in ithica, NY. since then i have bolted them on and fine tuned a bit and went racing. Also..650cfm is a good carb if your running a stock 305, anything bigger and your choking the heck out of your engine. just an example: when i ran pure stocks my kp 2g rochester would flow 600 cfm, that was a 2 barrel with major mods. on a 355 with 9:1 compression on pump gas with a .450 lift rule cam and cast iron manifolds. do the math, if my baby 355 had 600 cfm and could have used more. how bad are u starving a 383 woth flow and headers with a 650?
On a foot note: one guy said stick feeler gauge in between rocker and valve stem and adjust to no lash plus a half turn on a solid lift cam..ummmmm. no. adjust to zero lash period with feelers installed. run engine to operating temp and check again cuz stuff expands. and the manufactures recommened lash is just that, recommended. you can vary up or dow .005 or so. remember changing lash is changing lift, and it is an excellent way to fine tune your torgue curve.
another note.....vortec heads are great low buck iron heads, but if you plan on going over .500 lift you need to machine valve spring pockets for taller springs or the will most certainly bind at high rpm.

Sorry about the book everyone. Been racing dirt cars for 15 years, from purestocks to late models and every class inbetween. Ive made lots and lots of engine, cam , carb, header , fuel, intake, mistakes that have cost me tons of cash. If i sound like im coming off as arrogant, im not trying to. just trying to save someone else lots of wasted blood sweat and tears.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 04:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtburner View Post
When picking a cam, contrary to what most will tell u, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin.
That's... interesting. I'll leave it at that.

Quote:
vortec heads are great low buck iron heads, but if you plan on going over .500 lift you need to machine valve spring pockets for taller springs or the will most certainly bind at high rpm.
Actually, there are 'plug and play' springs that will allow plenty of lift w/o coil bind. What the Vortec head suffers from is a tall, large OD (~0.900" at the base) guide boss. Above ~0.0450" lift, the seal to retainer clearance can become too tight for safety, and the boss OD limits spring choices.

Machining the spring seat depth- if done at all- should be done carefully so the seat doesn't end up in the water jacket. A longer valve stem and/or retainer and lock package can be used along w/the spring change to get the necessary installed height for the valve lift and spring pressures needed w/o machining the spring seat deeper.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 09:24 AM
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thanks for fixin my screw up

you are correct on the heads. good call. I was trying to simplify some, most people unless they machine heads for a living or are a hobby machinist wouldnt have a clue what u said. I kinda defeated my object of helping by not fully describing. Sorry. you most certainly will wreak havoc with valve seals if machine work is not done. and you are correct they will handle .500 lift. the cam i ran was a .505 but i ran roades lifters. so i was over .550. and i can assure u. over 5500rpm the springs will bind( with the exception of behives i believe) and stuff will break.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtburner View Post
When picking a cam, contrary to what most will tell u, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin.
Really........? Are you sure your confident enough in your knowledge to make a statement like that? Why do cam manufacturers suggest gear and stall speeds then?

Last edited by zildjian4life218; 07-27-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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^^^^ I agree 10 fold

granted, you can run a "large" duration cam (240-270 @ .050) with a set of 2.73:1 gears in a car weighing 4000lbs and the motor will still make whatever hp it would make on a engine dyno or even a chassis dyno. the issue is that it will run like such a dog until you get the car into the cams operating range that it would take all the fun out of the vehicle. on top of that even when it got to the power band, it would run though it too slowly. when you add more weight to a vehicle it just multiplies this effect.


if you are looking for "said" hp numbers then no the gears and weight of the car doesn't matter. but if you want those "said" hp numbers to convert into a fun, fast, track worthy car then you need to rest of the vehicle to combine to complement the motor.
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  #54 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z View Post
^^^^ I agree 10 fold

granted, you can run a "large" duration cam (240-270 @ .050) with a set of 2.73:1 gears in a car weighing 4000lbs and the motor will still make whatever hp it would make on a engine dyno or even a chassis dyno. the issue is that it will run like such a dog until you get the car into the cams operating range that it would take all the fun out of the vehicle. on top of that even when it got to the power band, it would run though it too slowly. when you add more weight to a vehicle it just multiplies this effect.


if you are looking for "said" hp numbers then no the gears and weight of the car doesn't matter. but if you want those "said" hp numbers to convert into a fun, fast, track worthy car then you need to rest of the vehicle to combine to complement the motor.
I understand the point being made, but also, peak torque, peak power, or peak average power will all occur for a particular engine with the right camshaft for that purpose. Gearing and weight have nothing to do with it.

The cam matches the engine, the engine should match the car (or change the car to match the engine). Really, gearing and weight doesn't matter, you can crutch it with a cam but you would have been better off building the engine differently from the start.
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  #55 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtburner View Post
the cam i ran was a .505 but i ran roades lifters. so i was over .550.
A rocker ratio change from 1.5 to 1.65 will increase a cam from 0.505" to 0.555" lift. Rhodes lifters reduce lift/duration at lower rpm, then pump back up above about 3000 rpm to give full lift/duration, but using them will not increase the lift of a cam.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
I understand the point being made, but also, peak torque, peak power, or peak average power will all occur for a particular engine with the right camshaft for that purpose. Gearing and weight have nothing to do with it.

The cam matches the engine, the engine should match the car (or change the car to match the engine). Really, gearing and weight doesn't matter, you can crutch it with a cam but you would have been better off building the engine differently from the start.
And what changes do you think would be made- do you think there's a chance the gear ratio or power to weight might enter into it??

Average and peak power of an engine isn't themselves affected by the gears or weight- they aren't bolted into the engine, after all, and have no way of changine the engine's output- except they WILL effect how the engine's output drives the vehicle down the road or track- to a large degree.- The cam is what is used (in part) to tailor the engine peaks and averages for a particular application.

To say "When picking a cam, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin" is a skewed way to look at a system. The cam is a big part of that system, and all the components of the system need to be in sync. That includes knowing the weight, gear ratios and every other parameter of the vehicle as well as the use of the vehicle, fuel, ambient conditions and much more.

Call up a cam grinder and tell him "give me a custom ground cam for my engine" and see what questions you will be asked.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 02:29 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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And how is a cam spec'd when their is no car information? How is it speced for something like engine masters? Gearing is irrelavent. It just gives an idea of where you want the power, if you already know that then it doesn't do you any good. Saying your cruise is at 2800, you are between 2000-4000 95% of the time, and your redline is 6000 is MUCH more useful than gearing.

Put another way, gearing is a means to develop the curve your chasing, if you already know that then its useless.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
And how is a cam spec'd when their is no car information? How is it speced for something like engine masters? Gearing is irrelavent. It just gives an idea of where you want the power, if you already know that then it doesn't do you any good. Saying your cruise is at 2800, you are between 2000-4000 95% of the time, and your redline is 6000 is MUCH more useful than gearing.

Put another way, gearing is a means to develop the curve your chasing, if you already know that then its useless.
The only reason a cam would be chosen w/o any concern for the vehicle it was intended for would be to chase a peak or average number with an engine not intended to be in a vehicle in the first place. Like EM.

Maybe what you are saying is it's just as good to build a car around the engine rather than the engine to match an existing (or imagined) vehicle/performance goal. This may be so in the world of "what if" or for bench racing, but I have found it much better to start out w/a vehicle or at least a goal in mind, then build the engine to suit it instead of building an engine then trying to figure out what to do w/it.

In the case where you are building a "400 HP engine", it's already known what gears and weight will result in what performance. So unless one just doesn't care what the performance is as long as he can say "I have a 400 hp engine", factors like weight and gear ratio are a part of the equation.
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  #59 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 04:01 PM
How fast is fast enough?
 
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Originally Posted by cobalt327 View Post
a goal in mind
If you have a definite enough goal in mind then all the other details don't matter. the gearing and weight just helps define the goal if you don't know exactly what you're chasing after.
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 07-27-2012, 08:30 PM
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Dirtburner,well stated.
To say "When picking a cam, weight of the car and gears and so on mean nothin" is a skewed way to look at a system. The cam is a big part of that system, and all the components of the system need to be in sync. That includes knowing the weight, gear ratios and every other parameter of the vehicle as well as the use of the vehicle, fuel, ambient conditions and much more.

NO ONE ever asks the intent of the car? rofl.why recommend 4.11 gears without knowing what the car is used for,not everyone drag races,,,I use a moderately big solid roller and I dont drag race and I only use a 3.50 gear. The tires bust loose in 1st or 2nd gear and I do not have a small carb either.I dont have high velocity small runner heads either.

Tuning is everything and matching the engine parts is very important.I would never recommend big heads for a street driven/ daily driver,but I would not be shy about a decent camshaft and moderate size carb.
for the young fella I would just recommend he puts a near stock engine in his 3800 pound car and concentrate on lowering the weight and improving the suspension and tires first.
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