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Old 03-17-2014, 12:15 PM
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383 stroker engine swap issues

Hi guys,

About a year ago I picked up a 68 firebird. I have been working on it steady for the past year. It had a 350 SBC and a saginaw 4 speed in it when I bought it. After some tuning on the motor it ran decent but had no oil pressure once it warmed up and a dull thump felt in the floor. So I tear into the engine to find a crank that was already turned 20 under on both rods and mains. The bearing clearances were 3x the max spec. The cylinder walls were 40 over and scared up. The pins tons were collapsed and there were 3 rounded lobes on the cam.

So rather than rebuild this motor I decided to shop around for a long block 383. After checking reviews and customer feed back I placed an order for a 383 stroker 9.5 to 1 CR, aluminum vortec style heads, 1.6 to 1 roller rockers, flat tappet lifters, 2pc rms.

I ordered it through PMC Machine in Oregon. The guy tells me it will be 10-14 days build time with 2-3 days shipping. Long story shot it took 25 working days to ship after repeated phone calls. So the motor is supposed to come blueprinted and balanced. I finally get the motor but it is missing the balancer and the flex plate. No blueprint or balance sheet either. So I call them up and they tell me that they will order me the parts from summit but I probably will not see them for another week. I told then no I will source the parts local. So I picked up a Doorman balancer for a small black 400 and I had to order the 169t flywheel for a 70's small block 400 because I could not find one locally. I put it all together and now I have a distinct engine vibration between 1900 and 2000 RPM. The vibration seems to smooth out around 2200 RPM. I have not really had the motor up over 3500 rpm so I do not know if I will run into another harmonic near the top end. Looking at the crank I can see where they drilled to balance it but I do not have the balancer or the flywheel/flex plate they used. I have gone through the timing and ignition, valve adjustments, carb, etc. I guess my next step is to pull the trans and clutch to verify it is coming from the engine before I pull it out and take it down for a rebalance. The only thing I am thinking that it might be besides the motor is the new Centerforce dual friction clutch. I have read about vibration issues with those.

Is there anything else that I should check?

Many thanks

Ted

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Old 03-17-2014, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TGoodwin View Post
Hi guys,

About a year ago I picked up a 68 firebird. I have been working on it steady for the past year. It had a 350 SBC and a saginaw 4 speed in it when I bought it. After some tuning on the motor it ran decent but had no oil pressure once it warmed up and a dull thump felt in the floor. So I tear into the engine to find a crank that was already turned 20 under on both rods and mains. The bearing clearances were 3x the max spec. The cylinder walls were 40 over and scared up. The pins tons were collapsed and there were 3 rounded lobes on the cam.

So rather than rebuild this motor I decided to shop around for a long block 383. After checking reviews and customer feed back I placed an order for a 383 stroker 9.5 to 1 CR, aluminum vortec style heads, 1.6 to 1 roller rockers, flat tappet lifters, 2pc rms.

I ordered it through PMC Machine in Oregon. The guy tells me it will be 10-14 days build time with 2-3 days shipping. Long story shot it took 25 working days to ship after repeated phone calls. So the motor is supposed to come blueprinted and balanced. I finally get the motor but it is missing the balancer and the flex plate. No blueprint or balance sheet either. So I call them up and they tell me that they will order me the parts from summit but I probably will not see them for another week. I told then no I will source the parts local. So I picked up a Doorman balancer for a small black 400 and I had to order the 169t flywheel for a 70's small block 400 because I could not find one locally. I put it all together and now I have a distinct engine vibration between 1900 and 2000 RPM. The vibration seems to smooth out around 2200 RPM. I have not really had the motor up over 3500 rpm so I do not know if I will run into another harmonic near the top end. Looking at the crank I can see where they drilled to balance it but I do not have the balancer or the flywheel/flex plate they used. I have gone through the timing and ignition, valve adjustments, carb, etc. I guess my next step is to pull the trans and clutch to verify it is coming from the engine before I pull it out and take it down for a rebalance. The only thing I am thinking that it might be besides the motor is the new Centerforce dual friction clutch. I have read about vibration issues with those.

Is there anything else that I should check?

Many thanks

Ted
383 can be built internally or externally balanced. Obvioulsy none of us have any idea what these people really built for you, but I'd start from they built it with internal balance and you'll need a netural balanced damper and flywheel.

I can't locate a PMC Machine in Oregon at least not one that builds car engines???

Bogie
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Old 03-17-2014, 05:49 PM
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It could be built with an internal balance crank, like OldBogie has suggested in the above post and need a neutral balance flywheel and balancer.

Any chance the builder could tell you which balance they used?
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:38 PM
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Here is their web link.
PMCMachine.com, 7 Year 70000 Mile Warranty

They told me that I needed an external balanced flywheel for a small block 400 or a neutral balanced flywheel and a external balance plate. They also told me that I needed a balancer for a 70's small block 400. I'm thinking they did balance it since the pistons all had numbers written on the bottoms with red marker and the crank was drilled. I'm wondering if they had to drill the balancer but if not I am wondering if there are differences in manufacturing tolerances between brands. I do know that the timing mark was NOT true TDC since I used a piston stop and a degree wheel to check it. It was off about 1/8 - 3/16".

Here is the build sheet...


4-BOLT 2 PC REAR MAIN SEAL BLOCK
GM CON RODS W/ARP ROD BOLTS & NUTS
SCAT STEEL 383 CRANKSHAFT
SPEED-PRO HYPERUETECTIC PISTONS 9.7 TO 1 COMP
MAHLE PLASMA MOLY PISTON RINGS
CAMSHAFT .488/.510-234/244-112
HYDRAULIC LIFTERS
BRASS FREEZE PLUGS
NEW EFORCE HARMONIC BALANCER
TRI-METAL 780 “IROC” SERIES BEARINGS
QUIET GEAR DRIVE TIMING SET
COMPLETE GASKETS SET
MELLING HV OIL PUMP
NEW VORTEC ALUMINUM 64CC 190CC INTAKE RUNNERS
W/1.60/2.02 STAINLESS STEEL SWIRL POLISHED VALVES
SCREW-IN STUDS & GUIDE PLATES
CYLINDER HEAD BOLTS
ROLLER ROCKERS ARMS
BORE AND HONE BLOCK WITH TORQUE PLATE
DECK ENGINE BLOCK PARALLEL TO MAIN LINE
RE-SIZE CONNECTING RODS WITH ARP BOLTS AND NUTS
HANG AND ALIGN PISTONS
LINE HONE ENGINE BLOCK
FULLY BALANCE ENGINE ASSEMBLY
ASSEMBLE LONG BLOCK
AUTOMATIC TRANY
PAINT BLACK


I guess I will have to pull the trans an clutch and start it up and see if the vibration is still there.

Thanks Ted
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Old 03-17-2014, 06:49 PM
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A gear drive and an Edelbrock RPM cam?
Shipped with missing parts?
I would be having a conversation about their return policy.
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Old 03-17-2014, 08:11 PM
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Cam with big enough duration (like you have) can give a slight rough running spot in the powerband at low to medium throttle openings and light load due to airspeed through the carb versus carb circuit calibration.... it causes a light "rolling" misfire situation that will make the engine shake. It may not be a vibration at all. Happens right in the rpm area you descibe, just several hundred rpm above idle but before the airflow really starts moving through the carb.
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Old 03-18-2014, 12:34 AM
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The 350 that I pulled out had the gear drive with the "noisy" cut. Drove me CRAZY looking for the empty power steering pump! It was extreamly loud and on the highway it was unbearable. This "quiet" cut is still anoying as hell. You can not hear the gears on the highway but cruising through town it still sounds like a empty power steering pump to me so the gears are going to a buddy of mine with a couple of cool ratrods. I would rather hear the engine myself and plan on changing it over to a double roller chain over the summer when it is too hot ouside to enjoy the ride.

The motor đoes seem to be running good. I have not jumped on it or dumped the clutch due to it being a new motor, new flywheel, new clutch and fresh rebuilt M20 but I can say that it will easily break free and smoke the tires(tire) rolling in 2nd from about 10-15 mph by just punching the gas down to about 3/4. I rebuilt the 1406 edelbrock 600 cfm carb that was on the old 350 and am currently running that. I also picked up a rebuilt 1407 750 cfm carb from a buddy of mine for it but have not yet installed it.

The thing is it has 2.55 gears in the rear with a peg leg and that RPM where the vibration seems to occur is right around 50-60 MPH. On the freeway doing about 70-80 MPH it smooths out and is running around 2200- 2400 RPM. Yes the vibration is there sitting in neutral also. It is currently timed for 12 deg initial and 34 totál all in by 2500 RPM. I do not currently have the vacuum advance hooked up but will probably be going to the full vacuum port once I get all of the bugs worked out and the larger carb installed. I am worried that i will lose some low end torque with the larger carb given that i am still using some unidentifed 1 5/8" tube headers.

So maybe I should install and tune the larger carb before I go and pull the trans and clutch looking for a vibration that may really be a stumble in the power band?
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Old 03-18-2014, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by TGoodwin View Post
The 350 that I pulled out had the gear drive with the "noisy" cut. Drove me CRAZY looking for the empty power steering pump! It was extreamly loud and on the highway it was unbearable. This "quiet" cut is still anoying as hell. You can not hear the gears on the highway but cruising through town it still sounds like a empty power steering pump to me so the gears are going to a buddy of mine with a couple of cool ratrods. I would rather hear the engine myself and plan on changing it over to a double roller chain over the summer when it is too hot ouside to enjoy the ride.

The motor đoes seem to be running good. I have not jumped on it or dumped the clutch due to it being a new motor, new flywheel, new clutch and fresh rebuilt M20 but I can say that it will easily break free and smoke the tires(tire) rolling in 2nd from about 10-15 mph by just punching the gas down to about 3/4. I rebuilt the 1406 edelbrock 600 cfm carb that was on the old 350 and am currently running that. I also picked up a rebuilt 1407 750 cfm carb from a buddy of mine for it but have not yet installed it.

The thing is it has 2.55 gears in the rear with a peg leg and that RPM where the vibration seems to occur is right around 50-60 MPH. On the freeway doing about 70-80 MPH it smooths out and is running around 2200- 2400 RPM. Yes the vibration is there sitting in neutral also. It is currently timed for 12 deg initial and 34 totál all in by 2500 RPM. I do not currently have the vacuum advance hooked up but will probably be going to the full vacuum port once I get all of the bugs worked out and the larger carb installed. I am worried that i will lose some low end torque with the larger carb given that i am still using some unidentifed 1 5/8" tube headers.

So maybe I should install and tune the larger carb before I go and pull the trans and clutch looking for a vibration that may really be a stumble in the power band?
As much as I think your still going to be dealing with another issue in regards to the vibration, you should work on the tune regardless.
It needs the 750 Carb, and it needs timing. That cam wants 18-20 initial, 34* total will likely net your best results.
Smart ditching the gear drive btw.
Good lord man get a gear in the thing
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Old 03-18-2014, 01:53 PM
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Barring a balance problem almost impossible to diagnose from a distance......You have the classic mismatched rear gear to overly large cam problem (likely compounded by carb needing jetting /bleed changes to idle and transition circuits). Intake manifold air harmonics/reverse pumping of intake air(caused by the large duration and the late closing intake valve timing that comes with that) combined with the point the carb is trying to transition from idle metering circuit to main metering circuit combined with poor rear gearing putting cruise rpms right at that "flutter" point. Proof of this is that you say it smooths out when cruising at 2200-2400 rpm.

Correct calibration of the carb means jets/metering rod/step-up piston springs(power piston) changes, and possible air bleed size changes to correct....not just turning the idle mixture screws and calling it good.

You really need more rear gear for cam that size. I would consider 3.23 to be the absolute minimum to get away with.... 3.42-3.55-3.73 or more would be much better.

Cam really needs the initial timing higher, like Bygddy has posted, with the 34-36° total maintained
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Old 03-18-2014, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGoodwin View Post
Here is their web link.
PMCMachine.com, 7 Year 70000 Mile Warranty

They told me that I needed an external balanced flywheel for a small block 400 or a neutral balanced flywheel and a external balance plate. They also told me that I needed a balancer for a 70's small block 400. I'm thinking they did balance it since the pistons all had numbers written on the bottoms with red marker and the crank was drilled. I'm wondering if they had to drill the balancer but if not I am wondering if there are differences in manufacturing tolerances between brands. I do know that the timing mark was NOT true TDC since I used a piston stop and a degree wheel to check it. It was off about 1/8 - 3/16".

Here is the build sheet...


4-BOLT 2 PC REAR MAIN SEAL BLOCK
GM CON RODS W/ARP ROD BOLTS & NUTS
SCAT STEEL 383 CRANKSHAFT
SPEED-PRO HYPERUETECTIC PISTONS 9.7 TO 1 COMP
MAHLE PLASMA MOLY PISTON RINGS
CAMSHAFT .488/.510-234/244-112
HYDRAULIC LIFTERS
BRASS FREEZE PLUGS
NEW EFORCE HARMONIC BALANCER
TRI-METAL 780 “IROC” SERIES BEARINGS
QUIET GEAR DRIVE TIMING SET
COMPLETE GASKETS SET
MELLING HV OIL PUMP
NEW VORTEC ALUMINUM 64CC 190CC INTAKE RUNNERS
W/1.60/2.02 STAINLESS STEEL SWIRL POLISHED VALVES
SCREW-IN STUDS & GUIDE PLATES
CYLINDER HEAD BOLTS
ROLLER ROCKERS ARMS
BORE AND HONE BLOCK WITH TORQUE PLATE
DECK ENGINE BLOCK PARALLEL TO MAIN LINE
RE-SIZE CONNECTING RODS WITH ARP BOLTS AND NUTS
HANG AND ALIGN PISTONS
LINE HONE ENGINE BLOCK
FULLY BALANCE ENGINE ASSEMBLY
ASSEMBLE LONG BLOCK
AUTOMATIC TRANY
PAINT BLACK


I guess I will have to pull the trans an clutch and start it up and see if the vibration is still there.

Thanks Ted
So where are these guys located, the web site doesn't give a hint. My search engine keeps going to Tacoma, but you said they are in Oregon???

The web site you supplied says their engines come with a 7 year, 70,000 mile warranty so what gives with missing parts?

A balance job needs to be done with the damper and flywheel/flexplate the engine will run with. You'd be surprised (or not) at how off these things can be even when sold as netural balanced.

But their ad for a 383 with aluminum vortec heads says the crank is external balance, is that what this has? And why does you build sheet talk about an automatic transmission flex plate while you mention a flywheel which would indicate a stick not automatic?

This engine sounds a lot like their catalog aluminum headed Vortec build with a gear drive on the cam. I don't like gear drives even on a race engine they make a lot of noise so you can't hear what else is going on and they don't damp the vibration play between the crankshaft and camshaft either generate a lot of shake that feeds back and forth through a gear drive. Something is needed to damp that down which is one of the nice things about a chain drive as it functions like a shock absorber between these two rattling pieces.

The pictures show the engines with no tin, damper or flywheel/flexplate. I saw nothing about turn key engines, is this accurate?

Just trying to nail some of this down before you pull the engine apart, that's a lot of work only to find nothing so let's try to understand what's in there first and maybe going beyond the specs is as far as we get but let's take a little time to see first.

OK I hit a thing called Global Engines in Portland 8222 SE 6th, is this them?


Bogie
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Old 03-19-2014, 07:30 AM
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In terms of the gear drive,we have tried to use them in race only situations.Where cam timing often was a critical part of tuning. Never found any advantage to them.In fact wear on cam bearings was common.I'm guessing engine builders are trying to include them in their builds just to get rid of their old inventory or throw in a cheap part to lower their cost of the build.They try to convince the buyer it is a advantage when clearly it is not.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:35 AM
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I'd get the hell out from under this thing. Or at least follow Old Bogie's lead and get this squared away FIRST. If all that gets ironed out; and you want to keep possession of the engine, then I'd ditch the gear drive And dunk a 3.42 or 3.55: 1 ring and pinion in that rear. An M20 really works best with a 3.42-3.73:1 rear. Doing holeshots with a sub-3.42:1 rear is putting a LOT of stress on your Muncie. Not to mention there isn't a lot of material in that freeway flyer rear axle. If you shred either or...its gonna be expensive and compound your frustration. Get the details ironed out, and if all parties involved are comfortable, then address the timing set and the rear gear.

Nate
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:48 AM
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I'm with the school of thought that says a balanced engine would need to have all the parts at the same place when it is being balanced and the parts wuld come to you as a set. the crankshaft would need the flywheel and vibration damper to be properly balanced. if you didn't get those parts from them then it isn't properly balanced, that would explain the vibration and why it will eventually "let go" on you one day. go for the warranty or return option. it would make you wonder what else they scrimped on. when you looked up inside did you notice if the rods looked like they were balanced? they would have nice clean grind marks on the ends of the bearing caps. did the pistons look like they had any machining marks on the under side like they were weight matched? not trying to rain on your parade, just asking.
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:53 AM
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AUTOMATIC TRANY
PAINT BLACK???
like oldbogie mentioned,,,
is there a bearing in the crankshaft to support the imput shaft of the "TRANY"?
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Old 03-20-2014, 07:37 PM
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So where are these guys located, the web site doesn't give a hint. My search engine keeps going to Tacoma, but you said they are in Oregon???

The web site you supplied says their engines come with a 7 year, 70,000 mile warranty so what gives with missing parts?

A balance job needs to be done with the damper and flywheel/flexplate the engine will run with. You'd be surprised (or not) at how off these things can be even when sold as netural balanced.

But their ad for a 383 with aluminum vortec heads says the crank is external balance, is that what this has? And why does you build sheet talk about an automatic transmission flex plate while you mention a flywheel which would indicate a stick not automatic?

This engine sounds a lot like their catalog aluminum headed Vortec build with a gear drive on the cam. I don't like gear drives even on a race engine they make a lot of noise so you can't hear what else is going on and they don't damp the vibration play between the crankshaft and camshaft either generate a lot of shake that feeds back and forth through a gear drive. Something is needed to damp that down which is one of the nice things about a chain drive as it functions like a shock absorber between these two rattling pieces.

The pictures show the engines with no tin, damper or flywheel/flexplate. I saw nothing about turn key engines, is this accurate?

Just trying to nail some of this down before you pull the engine apart, that's a lot of work only to find nothing so let's try to understand what's in there first and maybe going beyond the specs is as far as we get but let's take a little time to see first.

OK I hit a thing called Global Engines in Portland 8222 SE 6th, is this them?


Bogie

Yes that is the correct address.

The 383 is supposed to ship with a balancer and flexplate. I questioned the automatic transmission on the spec sheet also. They do not ship flywheels. They will ship a balance plate for use with a neutral balanced flywheel instead of the flexplate if requested. My intent was to take the flexplate and a new flywheel to the local machine shop and see if they could match them in balance but I did not get one. It does not ship with tins except for a trow away timing cover since the gear drive requires the cam button. When I called them about the missing parts they were going to priority ship me a flexplate and balancer from Summit. Why? They will not be balanced to the motor unless they did not need to alter the balance of the balancer and flexplate when they balanced the motor. They could not answer that question. Then there are manufacturing tolerances of the balancer and the flexplate to consider. Like I said the timing mark on the balancer was NOT true TDC. This could be due to the balancer or the timing cover pointer. Then start swapping different brands and who knows. They did credit me back $100 for the missing balancer and flexplate. I have gotten nothing but the run around and flat out lies from this company. Not so much as a "sorry for your inconvenience" even when I caught them in their lies about when the engine actually shipped. It is what it is and I will not deal with them again.

In the mean time I need to make some lemonade out of these lemons.
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