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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 05-20-2005, 10:32 PM
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Chris,

Thanks for all the information you provided me.
Actually I consulted with Glenn, and finally with his help I decided on what part to purchase for a 350 for myself.

So I have almost all the parts which I require for my 350 for my Camaro SS 350.

Now, I was offerd by my friend to build him a 383, and I asked this thread actually for just building a 383 for the freind, and I heard so many good things about it, that I can even decide to make my own 350 which is not finished yet completely, a 383.

So in any case I have to make a 383 for my friend.
And the scond thing is that, I build up my engine 383 instead of 350 just with some machine work, 400 crank and a set of 400 rods.

For my own 350 I have:

-Edelbrock 170 cc intake runner and 64 cc chamber Heads
-Performer RPM Intake
-Holley 600 cfm Double Pump
-Flowtech 1 5/8" headers
-Fel Pro Gasket full set #2802
-K&N Filter
-Mallory HEI Dist.
-Split fire triple plat. plugs
-Accel 8.8 wires
-Pistons: 1 set of FM 345np +.020 or Badger B 557's at +.030 and +.040 which are supposed to be similar to 345 np's.
-And most important: LUNATI VOODOO Cam with lifters
219/227 duration @ .50 & lift of: .468/.489

So I get a compression ratio of app. 9.65: 1
I have dual strait exhausts.

Desktop Dyno gave me: 377 TQ @ 3900 & 347hp @5400 with +.04 over bore
Now for the 383 I got: 405 TQ @ 3900 & 356hp @5400 with same bore.

So which do you suggest? Are these figures close to real at all?

As I said, I can still go with 350 and the later on sell the 455ho to build a 383 beside the 350 for my Camaro as well. But if 383 respond better why not go for it now?

Thanks Chris, thanks Glenn,
Houman

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 05:17 AM
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Hey Glenn,

I see you are here?
How's everything? How's the weekend?

Take care,
Houmn
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houman SS '70
Desktop Dyno gave me: 377 TQ @ 3900 & 347hp @5400 with +.04 over bore
Now for the 383 I got: 405 TQ @ 3900 & 356hp @5400 with same bore.

So which do you suggest? Are these figures close to real at all?
I'd say those numbers are very realistic and judging from the HP numbers at 5400 it looks like they have a nice fairly flat torque curve. TQ and HP are always equal at 5,250 RPM and I doubt your HP at 5250 is a lot lower than that so the TQ numbers will stil be decent. Either motor should perform vary nicely and do exactly what you want. It's real easy to fall into the "more is better" philosophy, a little more cam, a little bigger intake runner, just a little more carb and on and on until you've "mored" yourself right out of what you originally started out to build. On the street it's almost always better in the long run to err on the conservative side, it's easier to live with. That's my story anyway and I'm sticking to it.

The heads are going to restrict the 383 on the top end some but if I understand correctly for what you want from this engine they will work very nicely. They will really keep the mixture velocity up in the low and mid-range and once you get it all dialed in your throttle response should be phenomenal. That's the way I like 'em, for a street motor I'll gladly give up top end power that I would almost never be able to use for nice crisp throttle response and a bottom end that will light the tires at will. I'd have to say with that combo is going to be a real blast to drive and very reliable as well. I wouldn't hesitate to build one just like it.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippie
I'd say those numbers are very realistic and judging from the HP numbers at 5400 it looks like they have a nice fairly flat torque curve. TQ and HP are always equal at 5,250 RPM and I doubt your HP at 5250 is a lot lower than that so the TQ numbers will stil be decent. Either motor should perform vary nicely and do exactly what you want. It's real easy to fall into the "more is better" philosophy, a little more cam, a little bigger intake runner, just a little more carb and on and on until you've "mored" yourself right out of what you originally started out to build. On the street it's almost always better in the long run to err on the conservative side, it's easier to live with. That's my story anyway and I'm sticking to it.

The heads are going to restrict the 383 on the top end some but if I understand correctly for what you want from this engine they will work very nicely. They will really keep the mixture velocity up in the low and mid-range and once you get it all dialed in your throttle response should be phenomenal. That's the way I like 'em, for a street motor I'll gladly give up top end power that I would almost never be able to use for nice crisp throttle response and a bottom end that will light the tires at will. I'd have to say with that combo is going to be a real blast to drive and very reliable as well. I wouldn't hesitate to build one just like it.
Glenn,
I think you mean 383? Right?
Do you think I'd get a good quarter mile time with 383?
I've got auto trans th 350 and 3.73 rear on my own car.

Tell me 383 or 350, I'm gonna go for it, just a crank change and some machine work right? It's worth 30 ft of tq.

I wait for your confirmation.

Houman
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 03:17 PM
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Actually Houman both your 350 and 383 numbers look decent. I don't know how much the crank work will cost you over there, you really have to decide if it's worth the cost for the extra torque but I've always adhered to the theory that you should always build the biggest engine you can afford. To a lot of people your combo looks pretty mild but it is more than enough to give your passengers a thrill and I think your looking at honest 13's in the 1/4. My 383 ran high 15's / 16.0's in a friend's 1971 Monte Carlo with the same transmission and rear end as your Camaro in full street trim through full exhaust and on 225-70X15 Sears all season radials that went up in smoke well into 2nd gear. This was a nose heavy car that is several hundred pounds heavier than your Camaro. Knock off a half a second or so for the weight difference and throw in some traction and you're in the low 14's/high 13's, get the carb and ignition dialed in and work on the suspension a little more and you've got a solid mid-13 second "all motor" car with mild street manners. No laughing gas involved. Maybe not "fast" by a lot of people's standards but you'll still have a car you can take anywhere anytime you want and the nice thing is it can be set up to corner extremely well too so you have the makings of a really nice "touring" car. It would definitely turn heads cruising down any main street here in the States so I'm sure it draws a LOT of attention over there. If it were mine I'd go for the 383. Who knows? Maybe someday you can give me a ride in it.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houman SS '70

Desktop Dyno gave me: 377 TQ @ 3900 & 347hp @5400 with +.04 over bore
Now for the 383 I got: 405 TQ @ 3900 & 356hp @5400 with same bore.
For the same bore with a longer stroke. The increase in HP & TQ mostly came from the increase in compression, not the ci. Try to run the engines thru the proggy but keep all variables equal..especially the compression. Please post those results so i can see what your program says.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 05-21-2005, 04:57 PM
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Very ture the increase in comp. does tend to produce some extra HP but one thing to note is that the TQ reading was at 3900 well above the off idle RPM in which the pull of the 383 takes place. I have seen many dyno test that give the 383 over 400 ft. lb. even below 2000 rpms. Like has been said you will feel the diff. in a 383 off the line other then that the 350/ 383 have close power ratings the 383 generally will make more tq and keep a flat powerband and 350s tends to be more of a peaky and may have more hp (all things the same) but falls short in that down under pulling power.

Chris
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 12:21 AM
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get the carb and ignition dialed in and work on the suspension a little more!

Glenn,

Actually I have below parts installed in for suspension:

Prothane Total Body Package ( Poly Urethan Body mount, spring bushings, and everything else expet the Motor Mounts)
Lakewood Traction bars
Monroe Gas Magnum Shocks ( which I'll change leter on to Edelbrock IAS when I get some cash)

And my tires are 245 60x14 on original Cragar S/S wheels.
Rear end is 3.73 Posi, original.

Now do you think that I should go for anything else for the suspension?
Regarding the Ignition, I'll just have to get the MSD 6AL, right? Or do I need anything else as well?

By the way, I finally didn't understand, if I use stock 400 rods, then I don't need to do any connecting rod bolt, nut clearance? Right?

Thanks for all your complements about my car, who knows if you are a free man you can come down here somtime to visit the Ancients Persepolis, Pasargad, and many other sites, which draws so many tourists from all around the world to Iran. And off course, if not in the summer time, we can go with the pony, because it doesn't have an a/c.

So....
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 01:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NXS
For the same bore with a longer stroke. The increase in HP & TQ mostly came from the increase in compression, not the ci. Try to run the engines thru the proggy but keep all variables equal..especially the compression. Please post those results so i can see what your program says.

I disagree. If you made the variable of compression constant (say 9.5 for both motors) you would see a significant increase in torque and horsepower from the 33 extra cubic inches. Displacement produces torque, this is fact.

K
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NXS
Nice engine, really nice car!


While we wait for somebody that knows the weights of those 4 componets let's consider something. If we say that a stock style 383 has a max safe rpm of 5500 rpm and that a 350 has a max safe rpm of 6250( I personally think 6500) and we figure the CFM needed @ 100% VE we get 609 CFM for the 383 and 632 for the 350 we can see that a 350 can make more power with greater reliability.
Absolutely false. A 350 with similar parts will never make more power than a 383. Do a dyno test on this and show me results where a 350 makes more power with the same parts than a 383 and I'll eat my words.

K
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 03:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killerformula
Absolutely false. A 350 with similar parts will never make more power than a 383. Do a dyno test on this and show me results where a 350 makes more power with the same parts than a 383 and I'll eat my words.

K
Killerformula,

Actually the compression ratio stays the same no matter how much the stroke changes!
Even changing the rods to a longer or shorter rod will not change the cr. This is what the desktop dyno is showing.

I'm now at the office but later on tonight I'll send the Dyno page in the same thread.

Thanks,
Houman Taherian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houman SS '70
get the carb and ignition dialed in and work on the suspension a little more!

Glenn,

Actually I have below parts installed in for suspension:

Prothane Total Body Package ( Poly Urethan Body mount, spring bushings, and everything else expet the Motor Mounts)
Lakewood Traction bars
Monroe Gas Magnum Shocks ( which I'll change leter on to Edelbrock IAS when I get some cash)

And my tires are 245 60x14 on original Cragar S/S wheels.
Rear end is 3.73 Posi, original.

Now do you think that I should go for anything else for the suspension?
Regarding the Ignition, I'll just have to get the MSD 6AL, right? Or do I need anything else as well?

By the way, I finally didn't understand, if I use stock 400 rods, then I don't need to do any connecting rod bolt, nut clearance? Right?
OK, let's start with traction, before you make any major suspension changes you need to try the car first. If it hooks up decent you're halfway there and if you're happy with the ET you get leave it alone. You can make it quicker through suspension tuning but eventually you would reach a point where driving it on the street was something to be dreaded. If it doesn't get traction try different tires first and that's a whole other post in itself which I will defer to someone more knowledgeable about what's available and really works. They didn't have all those sticky street tires when I had my hot rods.

You've got a good ignition system but the advance curve will need to be tailored to your car and the type of driving you plan to do, that is where a distributor machine is nice. You can have it real close before you ever drop it in the car. It can save you a lot of tuning later on but you need to find someone that knows what they are doing with one and that could be tough. Hopefully somone here that has a similar setup can give you a good starting point. I can't even begin to remember where we set mine. I was never an expert on setting the advance curve anyway, a good friend of mine had an old Sun distributor machine and was pretty good with it. I'd just hand him my distributor and a 12 pack, it was a pretty good arrangement as long as he did the distributor BEFORE he did the 12 pack.

If you use stock 400 rods you will have no clearance issues. I would recommend a set of ARP or similar rod bolts though. When I did mine they weren't readily available for the 400 rods but came out shortly after I had mine assembled..... The machine shop that did my crank for me took ARP 350 rod bolts and modified them to fit so if you have trouble getting the 400 bolts and trust your machinist that is a viable option.

Well I need to spend some time in the garage myself so I'll catcha' later......
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 06:24 AM
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You know, I don't have acess to ARP rod bolts.
Doesn't the stock bolts work well?

At the end of the day what would be the difference?

Thanks for letting me know.

Take care and have a nice weekend.

Bye,
Houman
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 07:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houman SS '70
Killerformula,

Actually the compression ratio stays the same no matter how much the stroke changes!
Even changing the rods to a longer or shorter rod will not change the cr. This is what the desktop dyno is showing.

I'm now at the office but later on tonight I'll send the Dyno page in the same thread.

Thanks,
Houman Taherian

Hey there Houman,

I'm not sure what you meant by the above, but just to let you know what I meant....

If you have a given setup and you lengthen the stroke, you'll up the compression ratio just because you're packing more air/fuel into that space. So a flat top piston and 64cc head will make about .5 more compression in a 383 than a 350. The following is from a compression ratio calculator, just to give you an idea what I mean:

You Entered:
Bore 4.03 (inches)
Stroke 3.48 (inches)
Rod Length 5.7 (inches)
Cyl. Head Vol. 64 (cc)
Deck Height 0.025 (inches)
Head Gasket Bore 4.166 (inches)
Head Gasket Thickness 0.039 (inches)
Piston to Cyl. Wall Clearance 0.003 (inches)
Top Ring Land Height 0.25 (inches)
Piston Dome Vol. 0 (cc)

Compression Ratio:
10.327 : 1

Bore / Stroke Ratio:
1.158 : 1

Rod / Stroke Ratio:
1.638 : 1

Total volume:
805.546 cc's

Compressed volume:
78.004 cc's

Now for the 383:

You Entered:
Bore 4.03 (inches)
Stroke 3.75 (inches)
Rod Length 5.7 (inches)
Cyl. Head Vol. 64 (cc)
Deck Height 0.025 (inches)
Head Gasket Bore 4.166 (inches)
Head Gasket Thickness 0.039 (inches)
Piston to Cyl. Wall Clearance 0.003 (inches)
Top Ring Land Height 0.25 (inches)
Piston Dome Vol. 0 (cc)

Compression Ratio:
11.051 : 1

Bore / Stroke Ratio:
1.075 : 1

Rod / Stroke Ratio:
1.52 : 1

Total volume:
861.993 cc's

Compressed volume:
78.004 cc's


Best of luck on your build!

K
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 05-22-2005, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Houman SS '70
You know, I don't have acess to ARP rod bolts.
Doesn't the stock bolts work well?
The stock ones should be OK if you keep it under 6,000 and it sounds like you will. I have never had a stock rod bolt fail, I just like the added insurance.

It's been a pretty good weekend so far and today looks like it's going to be beautiful ! This may be a good day to shine up the Monte, pop the T-tops and burn up some "liquid gold" Hope you're enjoying the same weather I am. See ya' later.
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