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Old 05-12-2009, 04:45 PM
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385ci/ 700r4 / 3k stall / 4.10 gears

i posted this in a previous thread but thought it might be better suited with it's own, sorry if you have read it twice now

here is what i have:
350 4blt @ .040
kb135040 18cc dished hyper pistons
eagle cast steel 3.75 crank
eagle SIR 5.7 rods
all ARP fasteners, clevitte 77 bearings
summit stock steel pan
summit 1.5 roller tip rockers
performer RPM intake
(motor is assembled with pistons @ 0 deck)
hei 50,000 hi-po dizzy

car: 1987 chevrolet camaro z28 (orig 305 4brl) 700R4 w/ 10bolt 7.5 2.73's
plans for the car=
subframe connectors, lakewood lift/track bars, allum radiator, elc fan

plans for drive train=
mega monster 700R4 w/ 3000 stall converter
eaton posi w/ 4.10 (posible 3.73's)

plans for motor=
DART iron eagle platinum 200cc 2.02/1.60 64cc heads
comp cam/lifter kit 284/296 240/246 0.507/0.510 110 / 106
holley 4160 750cfm with vac sec's & elc choke

altimate goal is 12.0-12.4 car 420-450hp/ 440-470tq street/strip

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Old 05-12-2009, 05:06 PM
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oh forgot to ask, what do you think?
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:13 PM
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I might be wrong but isnt a 350 .040 over like a 357 or so. Isnt 350 .060 over like 383. Im just asking.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:25 PM
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yes 350@ .040 is about 357/ .060 is 360 that is based on a stock 350 3.48" crank, im running a stroker 3.75" crank that @ .030 would be 383 but @ .040 is 385
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:27 PM
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Don't waste any money on the 7.5" rear, save a little more cash and go to a bolt in aftermarket 9" Ford. You will never be able to get the 7.5" to last, it is just dimensionally too small for the amount of power you want to put to it. After all, it was designed in 1970 for the 1971 4-cyl Vega.

Combo looks good.

American Muscle, 4.040" bore with 3.75" stroke is 385 cubic inches.
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Old 05-12-2009, 05:32 PM
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Sounds nasty. The reason I ask is I have a 350 .030 over(355ci) and was just making sure. I have a stock vortec block crank not sure of its dimensions. Can anyone inform me?
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:05 PM
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okay i looked at moser/strange/carrie for either 9" rears or 12 bolt direct fit applications for the 82-92 f-bodies, im know i will get flack for this but i perfer the 12bolt (i know 9" this, 9" that) what can i say im die hard GM, strange has a complete set for 2500.00+shipping, moser has a complete set for 2800.00+ shipping, but i wont have them in the car before i have it on the road, im sure i may blow the 7.5, but i wont have the 2500+ to throw at a new rear between now and then unless i just knock my estimated completion date back a year, anyway when it does blow ill just have to fork it over then, since i would have already driven in and enjoyed it i will want it back on the road ASAP

what do you think about the 700R4, and the 4.10 gears, i have gotten alot of flak about the 3.07 1st gear and a 4.10, many have told me this is too high and it will want to leave so hard that it will not be able to put it to road
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Old 05-12-2009, 08:49 PM
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Yeah thats what they keep telling me . im building a 385 stroke as well. with 3k stall and 4.10 plans, i figure hell with good enough tires we should beable to stick it to the road, will your be a daily driver? im planning for mine to be for alittle while.
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Old 05-12-2009, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatsamotor
Yeah thats what they keep telling me . im building a 385 stroke as well. with 3k stall and 4.10 plans, i figure hell with good enough tires we should beable to stick it to the road, will your be a daily driver? im planning for mine to be for alittle while.

no not a daily driver at all, but i will want to be able to drive it 30 miles on the highway to the beach where twice a year we have an awsome "moving car show" they do actually have a car show in the in-let parking lot but nobody cares, all weekend up and down the 140+ block highway strip they race, spin tires, rev, etc/etc, it atract's about 10k drag/street-streep/ hotrodds/etc every year, its awsome!!

are you trying to run a 700R4 trans, what are you putting it in
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Old 05-12-2009, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by my87Z

what do you think about the 700R4, and the 4.10 gears, i have gotten alot of flak about the 3.07 1st gear and a 4.10, many have told me this is too high and it will want to leave so hard that it will not be able to put it to road
I have a g-body with a very similar 385 with a 700r4 and 4.10 gears. On the street with street tires of course it'll spin like mad, but so will every decently geared car with that much power.

I run 10" mickey thompson drag ET slicks on the track and it hooks hard.

So I guess I'm saying that you will have traction problems on the street, but it should be able to hook at the track.

To me, it doesn't make sense to sabotage your combo by putting a higher gear in it, just you can save a bit of traction. It thought the whole point was to make your car faster? If you want traction just drop a 267 in there, it won't spin at all anytime
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81 Grand Prix, 355, 700r4, 8.5" 4.10
64 Oldsmobile Jetstar, all original
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:43 AM
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Just two things I would consider. First, the cam. I think the RPM range is good, but I would try to find something with a little more lift. In any case, I would use 1.6 rockers rather than 1.5. The 1.6 rockers would take you to .540 .544 lift.

The other thing is the heads. Although those are nice head from what I have heard, for another $200 you can get a fully CNC ported set of AFR 195's. If it were me, I would find a way to come up with the extra money.

I did see some Iron eagles for ~$1000 set up for .510 lift, which may explain why you choose the cam you did. At that point, I can see the trouble with comming up with another ~$500. The heads below are both straight plug set up for ~.600 lift.

Dart 200cc:$1240
http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/10421112P/10002/-1

AFR 195cc: $1440
http://www.jegs.com/i/AFR/033/1040/10002/-1

On another note, I calculate your compression to be ~8.8:1 with the iron eagle heads and 72c combustion chambers (9.5:1 with 64cc). I think even at 9.5:1 you may be a little low for the cam you are looking at.

If you went with the AFR heads and and a little bit of a dome, with the 75cc chambers you could get lower 10:1 compression which I think would work a lot better with that cam.

Adam
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by firestone
Just two things I would consider. First, the cam. I think the RPM range is good, but I would try to find something with a little more lift. In any case, I would use 1.6 rockers rather than 1.5. The 1.6 rockers would take you to .540 .544 lift.

The other thing is the heads. Although those are nice head from what I have heard, for another $200 you can get a fully CNC ported set of AFR 195's. If it were me, I would find a way to come up with the extra money.

I did see some Iron eagles for ~$1000 set up for .510 lift, which may explain why you choose the cam you did. At that point, I can see the trouble with comming up with another ~$500. The heads below are both straight plug set up for ~.600 lift.

Dart 200cc:$1240
http://www.jegs.com/i/Dart/301/10421112P/10002/-1

AFR 195cc: $1440
http://www.jegs.com/i/AFR/033/1040/10002/-1

On another note, I calculate your compression to be ~8.8:1 with the iron eagle heads and 72c combustion chambers (9.5:1 with 64cc). I think even at 9.5:1 you may be a little low for the cam you are looking at.

If you went with the AFR heads and and a little bit of a dome, with the 75cc chambers you could get lower 10:1 compression which I think would work a lot better with that cam.

Adam
dart heads 939.95
http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...er=10310010PK1

AFR's 1464.95
http://www.competitionproducts.com/p...number=AFR1034

you picked the L98 angle plug style head, i want the straight plug which even at jegs are still 1464.95, if you look at both of there flow #'s from a completely bias source:
AFR 195 street heads: @.400= 240 / @.500= 260/ @.600= 262

Dart iron platinum 200cc heads: @.400= 242 / @.500= 274 / @.600= 283

i know that max CFM is not all that makes a head but if you look at the 0.400 lift number and the increase to the 0.500 lift numbers the #'s are higher and the rate of increase is greater as well and for $500 less dollars, i know that AFR's are great heads, but say i want to later on go with a higher lift cam .550-.580, the Darts would still make great HP while the AFR's would need P&P'ing to get the same results, they are not worth it IMHO

you mention adding some dome, but the short block is completely assembled and not coming apart, im happy with all those parts, 9.6:1 with the 64cc heads is i guess what i will have to be happy with, unless i mill the heads a little, not sure what im going to do there
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:44 PM
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9.69:1 is what i got from some racing caculators and from KB site it's self

changing to a cam with .550 lift in order to do that i would have to change to a solid cam from the hyd cam, if you would besides the lift expalin the pro's and cons of a hyd cam and a solid (both flat tap), i always here the at the ramp on the cam i have chosen is very aggressive which it is on of comps XE cams, but if a 284/296, 240/246 cam with a lift of .507/.510 is compsidered a very aggressive ramp then what about a solid cam like 284/284 246/246 .550/.550 (not act specs, they are off the top of my head) shouldn't the ramp on this cam be even more aggressive

i would love to hear some sugesstions on hyd vs solid (flat-tap)
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dh79
I have a g-body with a very similar 385 with a 700r4 and 4.10 gears. On the street with street tires of course it'll spin like mad, but so will every decently geared car with that much power.

I run 10" mickey thompson drag ET slicks on the track and it hooks hard.

So I guess I'm saying that you will have traction problems on the street, but it should be able to hook at the track.

To me, it doesn't make sense to sabotage your combo by putting a higher gear in it, just you can save a bit of traction. It thought the whole point was to make your car faster? If you want traction just drop a 267 in there, it won't spin at all anytime
DH79: what 700R4 are you running, did you build it your self, is it aftermarket or did you get a overhaul kit and send it to a shop

i would like to know cause im not sure wether to spend the 1200-1400 on a aftermarket one or to buy a good kit and send it to a specialist, he says he will do it for 350.00 as a carry in, if i were to do it that way it would only be about 800-850.00 cause the kit is about 450

are you running the 7.5 rear in that or the 8.5
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Old 05-13-2009, 04:52 PM
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From a physical standpoint, they hydraulic cam has a little spring and plunger inside of it which dampens the impact from the pushrod a little bit. A solid lifter cam is just that.

I dont know for sure the theory behind solid cams making more power, but I assume it has to do with a better relationship between the lift at the cam and at the pushrod. If the hydraulic lifter is "squishing" a little bit, I can see how the valve would open a little bit later which would make less hp. That is not anything set in stone, so you may want to look into it more. As for the downside to the solid cam you have to set the valve lash periodically where as you do not with a hydraulic.

As for the compression, I think 9.7 is about perfect for Iron heads. Going with the Darts, I think you did the right thing. I just wanted to make sure they were not the 72cc heads.

If you are after .550 lift with a cam that is like yours, consider the follwoing from Lunati. With 1.6 rockers, you would be looking at .560 .582 lift with 1.6 rockers. Just know that they recommend 10.5:1 compression and a 3500 stall with this cam. The cam one step down would give you about the same lift as the comp you are looking at.

As for ramp rate, it is correct that a steeper ramp is better. The faster you can get into high lift the more the heads will flow. If you compare the ramp rate of the lunati cam to the comp you are looking at they are very similar.

http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1986&gid=287

From the little bit of looking that I did just comparing similar cams, it seems that they are able to get a little more of a ramp rate with a sold over a flat tappet. I am not sure why though.

As for the heads, first, I agree that with a $500+ difference in price, it is hard to go for the AFR's. As for flow, I think you have the flow numbers for the old style AFR heads. They just redesigned all of their small block heads and the new street 195s are 243 @.400 and 280 @.550.

I can not say that the flow numbers you posted for the Dart heads are not accurate, but I have trouble seeing how the Darts can keep up at all with the AFRs. Flow numbers aside, the AFR's are fully ported out of the box and the Darts are as cast. It is hard for me to see how the Darts will perform better.

At any rate, I think your motor will run very well with the Darts and the comp cam if that is the route you want to take.


One last thing, I had a ~375 hp motor in a 1972 ventura (nova) with a 700R4, 1900 stall and a 3.90 gear. As with the experience of others, it smoked the tires on the street anywhere in first gear. To me that is fun. With only a 235/60/15 BF Goodrich drag radial it hooked.

Adam
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