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Old 06-17-2003, 12:28 AM
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400 Hp Stock Engines-im Pissed!

I have been reading about the stock and super stock classes in PHR mag and am getting angrier the more i think about these guys using STOCK HEADS AND INTAKES AND CARBS AND CAM LIFT AND GETTING 400+ HP!!! How in the hell is it that i have to get an aluminum intake and aftermarket heads and hairy cam and still HOPE i can make 430 IF I'M FREAKIN LUCKY?? How come every time Hot Rod does some engine build up they throw 3 grand worth of after market parts at a sbc and only come up with 490 HP and how come they never have told us what all these big secrets must be to get a stock engine to scream??? i have subscribed to these rags for years and not seen anything that even comes close to this kind of information which i see as FREE IF ONE JUST KNOWS ABOUT IT! (Coincidentally the August 2003 PHR DOES have a great article on Porting tho) AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!! I WANT ALL THE DETAILS DAMMIT!!

PS: i'm talkin bout 60's and early 70 cars and cast iron heads!

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Old 06-17-2003, 05:54 PM
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They used to do those build ups years ago. I remember (because I'm a Ford guy) that R&C followed a build up of a Stock class '69 Cougar 428CJ by Dyno Don that Coke was giving away. The problem,as I see it, is that those build ups take time and patience, a commodity that seems in short supply. So the mags build like most guys want to build, quick and easy.

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Old 06-17-2003, 09:30 PM
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You want to know the secret?

Reground "stock" appearing cams with lift figures that equal the factory cam but definetly not the duration.

They don't call them "cheater" cams for nothing.

I helped layout a new design once and I calculated 40% more area under the curve due to the faster lift ramp and late closing "lip". Lift was factory though.

Do you think they have cam degree wheels when they tear you down for one of these races? Do you think any of these inspectors would know how to use one? In the higher classes they get a little more sticky.

I once slipped a cowl induction carb ram in through tech saying it was an under hood cooling duct!? Phhhffffttt!!! I gained 25 mph on the back straightaway with it!

What a joke.
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Old 06-17-2003, 09:32 PM
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I have done some reading on some of these, and they are not at all stock. One of the big things is that they use stock lift, but duration is off the charts. Looks more like a roller cam than a flat tappet cam. Can you say 300 psi seat pressure on flat tappet....

Also, they dont run stock compression. It is significantly higher.

Another trick is to run just enough oil to lube the engine. They will actually pump all the oil to the top of the engine at certain points and unload the pump for an extra 10 HP kick. Kindof nuts to me, but every little bit counts in those high competition classes.

Put the cam, compression, and a set of 461 heads, and 400 HP is a piece of cake.

I read about a guy running an all aluminum 427(cant remember code) engine, at like 650 HP and running low 11's on radials through exhaust manifolds. With headers it gained like 50 HP, but the class would not allow. He built the engine to make all its power in the high rpm range so it did not blow the tires off.

Another little trick is a hollow alternator. Theres another 5-10 HP.

That stuff is really cool to me. It makes people be really creative.

chris
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Old 06-18-2003, 12:29 PM
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duration anything goes

yeah, that is one thing they let them do what they want is duration. and they can also use headers and an intake in super stock, but still, i know there are things way over my head you can do and i spoze they arent going to put an article in on knife edging a crank, but there are some things like you mentioned above that i would like to see spelled out for me. obviously i wouldnt want to run around without oil or an alternator, but the record holder has a 9.8 second hemi dart for crying out loud!! i have port matched my rams horns to my heads and tried to design my trucks exhaust to pull on low end. but i have this camaro and a tempest that are showroom stock down to the air cleaners and oil breathers and i would like to keep the camaro that way (to retain value) if i can make 400 hp with stock parts. i need to know some more tricks, like that great porting article, but it seems to me that even with that photo by photo kind of article i still need some kind of diagram of the water jackets and where to watch out and not take too much material away. i have seen other articles along time ago on grinding down the sides of rods to shed oil but they are few and far between. the usual story is just bolt this on and poof you're done or else they talk about electronic wiring for stuff that boggles my mind. maybe the machiine work will boggel my mind as well, i dont know, but at least i could ask a machine shop if they could do it and how much it would cost, or be able to answer a post on this board with some kind of knowlege.:drool
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Old 06-19-2003, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 4 Jaw Chuck
You want to know the secret?

Reground "stock" appearing cams with lift figures that equal the factory cam but definetly not the duration.

They don't call them "cheater" cams for nothing.

I helped layout a new design once and I calculated 40% more area under the curve due to the faster lift ramp and late closing "lip". Lift was factory though.

What a joke.
We just put a stock lift rule cam in our "pure street" dirt car and the tops of the lobes we're flat. I hoped that it was supposed to be like that instead of a slip by the cam grinder. :surprised
This cam is way smaller (like .450 lift) compared to all the other cams we've ever ran.We usually have atleast .500 lift with the biggest being .530. Gotta be real careful with the duration though because our class has to pull 18" of vacuum at 1000 rpm.
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Old 06-20-2003, 11:35 AM
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The trick that I've found with most of these 400HP motors--including mine...yes, on a dyno--is in porting and cam matching. I've got "stock" truck heads with 2.08/1.98 valves, ported, polished, milled flat, and a 4-angle valve job. In addition to that, I drill and pipe tap fittings into the water jackets at the front of the heads and bypass the crossover in the intake (no hot spots). I'm running the stock 4-bolt truck block .060 over with flat tops, 6in rods, and the deck milled to 9.000.

Now, I understand a bit of valvetrain dynamics but--instead of guessing--I called up motormachine in Tuscon, AZ. They have a program that David Vizard developed over several years that can predict what cam will work best for your motor. I just sent them all of the specs of the motor, and for $160 they sent me a cam, lifters, and recommended spring specs. Fourteen days later, I made 426HP@6000 and 403ft-lb@4500...streetable. All of that for around $3800. I guess what I'm saying is brand names don't always make the power. The right combo does. Good luck man.
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Old 06-20-2003, 07:46 PM
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I think that would take it out of the "stock" class which is what I thought the original topic was around.... class stock cars (which are obligated to the rules he mentioned) that make 400HP. A special grind (other than one that met stock lift/duration specs) and ported heads would violate the rules.
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Old 06-25-2003, 11:25 AM
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I was really intereste in Stock Eliminator for a while(untill I realized its waaayy out of my league)and some of the machine work they do is insane.I think the valves are hollowed.If I remember your allowed to mill the heads down to an NHRA spec(say 59.3cc chamber).Cams are allowed any duration and I believe LSA just have to keep stock lift.Heads and intakes can't be ported but,some guys acid port them to enlarge there flow but still appear stock(this is cheating).
The main reason is that these engines are blueprinted and refined in every aspect,from the carb to the oil pump.
But as far as the HRM doing only off the shelf bolt on parts that kinda pisses me off.I don't have allot of money and I want to know how to make what I've got work.Luckily I' grew up around allot of piss poor drag racers that know some tricks.
This is why the whole after market heads thing pisses me off.I love when you tell someone you've got double humps how the first thing outta there mouth is something about how Vortecs can out flow a double hump for $400(+intake,rockers and covers).I love how the common theory is that anythjing without Vortecs,AFRs or what ever can't run faster than high 13s.This basically tells me there were no cars faster than 13s untill the last ten years.BS!!I've watched cars yank the wheels with unported 2.02 Double humps.
When I do my motors I kinda get a kick out of only modding the carb,intake,cam and headers.And see what I can do with super tuning and I try everything I can fesibly do.I've seen some guys with this and that and AFR and Edelbrock and Scat etc...that can't tune and are running .8sec faster than my old 305 headed 350 junyard wonder.
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Old 06-25-2003, 12:09 PM
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I kinda get a kick out of only modding the carb,intake,cam and headers.And see what I can do with super tuning and I try everything I can fesibly do.
Hehe, this reminds of the other day when a couple of young guns in an older Civic pulled up besides me in my Jetta at the light. They looked over at me and started revving the engine as if they wanted to race. Not being the type to back down I gave-em the finger and pointed straight ahead.

The light goes green and they take off late and I already have a car length on them, we go for three gears until the next light with the other driver obviously not a great stick man losing out on every shift. When they pull up besides me and yell "is that a GTI", I rolled down the passenger window and yelled back.

No, it's a bone stock 1.6 litre non-turbo 60 HP diesel!

His buddy in the passenger seat starts laughing so hard I thought he was going to have to get out and walk.

Afterward I felt bad because I lied to him...

It's not stock...it has a K@N filter on it.

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Old 06-25-2003, 02:00 PM
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Stock?

There are a million things that can be done to increase power with stock part's. One of those is the incredible attention to detail when building. Reducing recipricating wieght is the easiest. Reduce rod wieghts where they can be(nevermind durability). On our circle track in the street stock division they can get rotating wieght's down to 600 grams. The engines may fall under stock rules but they push the obsolute meaning of the rules. With a max lift of .450 they run really long cams with unported steel or iron heads. The only pure street division I have had experiences with limit lift not duration. .450 lift and 330 degrees of duraton are not uncommon.
Some people call them tricks but there no mystery voodoo there. Only a highly optimised tuning and a combo that that takes a whole year for engineers to understand. What do want to know and I will share some of what I have learned. Of course I can't tell you all of it. What if I gotta race ya sometime!
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Old 07-02-2003, 12:08 PM
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not likely i'll be in MO soon!

kinda not really on point, but sorta. i have been wanting to remove my rpm from my truck cause i want even lower rpm torque. i found a stock intake for a quadrajunk. the ones with the HUGE secondaries. i started to port match it but two things. first, port matching reduces turbulence, and dont i want turbulence for my motor??(truck). and two: it has big letters EGR cast into the bottom of it, i.e. smog. even tho it's a 74, do you think there is any dif. between that and a 70 stock sbc intake? Q:should i use a different stock intake? should i bother gasket matching? i have a stock intake on my 72 SS that i will replace with the rpm i could wait till i do that swap and use that one.
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Old 07-02-2003, 10:34 PM
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First of all your not wanting to remove the intake to get more low speed torque you simply need to take the necessary means to lower the RPM that the most power is needed. I will refer to torque as power not "horsepower" because horsepower is a fuction of RPM not torque. So what you need is to make the most power at the least amount of RPM.

It's of my recommendation that port matching with out the necessary means of addition air/fuel qaulity is minute at best. There are better way's to spend you time. That part of the port isn't even a restriction in most street driven cases. The throat, back of valve, valve seat angle, and port shape make a much better impression on power. However good news for you is that port matching won't hurt power.

Turbulance is a good thing as long as it happens on it's way into the chamber where it can break up globed fuel droplet's for more efficient burn. called fuel shear. When turbulence occurs, inevitably the mixure will go in many directions rather then striaght to the valve area, giving the fuel time to fall out of suspension and pool at the bottom of the intake. This is why smaller ports will give better power at the cost of being to restrictive at higher RPM's. So it's best to use the smallest port neccasary to run at the highest rpm needed and no more.

The Performer intake will make power at as little as 1000 on up to 6500 if these mods are installed. First you must remove the center divider at one inch down from the base area. Make the slot if you will extend from the back to the front. This will reduce induction pulse at the booster providing better atomization of the mixture. Then install, by either welding or cold welding, the runner entrance inside the plenum with extensions that protude into plnum to just underneath the the bolt holes. This will give the manifold a longer runner. don't spend time knife edging the extensions. In a chevy 350 firing order the #5 and #7 port will be the only ports to have flow at the sametime. If any work is to be done here at all then a generous radius should be givin to the edges. Lay the edges ofthe top part of the extensions back about a half inch or so. this will icrease the speed of the air at the cieling o the port where you want the mixture to flow into the head port. Less mixture will be at the floor but the puddling fuel will be picked up as the air strem fly's by.

In final thought. its a good idea to port the exit of the intake to give a slight upward bulge or over shooting the port as the mixture enters the head port. this will give better fuel distribution at the back of the intake valve helping to increase port flow at the corner cylinders where the most power robbing mixture degradation occurs. More later,
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Old 07-02-2003, 11:10 PM
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First of all, you don't want to remove the RPM intake to get more low speed torque, you simply need to take the necessary means to lower the RPM where more power is needed. I will refer to torque as power not "horsepower" because horsepower is a fuction of RPM not torque. So what you need is to make the most power with the least amount of RPM.

It's my recommendation that port matching without the necessary means of addition air/fuel quality is minute at best. There are better ways to spend your time. That part of the port isn't even a restriction in most street engine applications. The throat, back of valve, valve seat angle, and port shape make a much better impression on power. However the good news for you is that port matching won't hurt power.

Turbulance is a good thing as long as it happens on it's way into the chamber where it can break up globed fuel droplet's for more efficient burn, called fuel shear. When turbulence occurs, inevitably the mixure will go in many directions rather then straight to the valve area, giving the fuel time to fall out of suspension and pool at the bottom of the intake. This is why smaller ports will give better power at the cost of being to restrictive at higher RPM's. It's best to use the smallest port neccasary to run at the highest rpm needed and no more.

The Performer RPM intake will make power at as little as 1000 on up to 6500 if these mods are installed. You must take into account that the runners Edelbrock has designed, flow more air not by a better design, but by increasing the the port cross section area. First you must remove the center divider at one inch down from the carb base area. Making the slot extend from the front of the plenum to the rear. This will reduce induction pulses at the booster, called booster buffeting or damping, providing better atomization of the mixture. Then installed by either welding or cold welding the runner entrance inside the plenum with extensions that protude into plenum to just underneath the the bolt holes. This will give the manifold a longer runner. Don't spend time knife edging the extensions. In a chevy 350 firing order the #5 and #7 port will be the only ports to have flow at the same time. If any work is to be done here at all then a generous radius should be givin to the edges. Lay the edges of the top part of the extensions back about a half inch or so. This will increase the speed of the air at the ceiling to the port where you want the mixture to flow into the enterance of the head port creating less mixture velocity on the floor, but the resulted puddling fuel will be picked up as the air stream fly's by.

In final thought, it's a good idea to port the exit of the intake to give a slight upward bulge or over shooting the port as the mixture enters the head port. This will give better fuel distribution at the back of the intake valve helping to increase port flow at the corner cylinders where the most power robbing mixture degradation occurs. More later,
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Old 07-03-2003, 03:47 PM
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that's cool

then i dont have to do unnecessary work for little or no gain. i'm into that. i gotta new performer for my poncho tho and already cut the divider down about an inch all the way across. whoever had it before me cut it down but only under the secondaries. i finished the job. i've heard of people just doing it under the sec.s tho for the same reason. as far as extending the runners. i will check to see if this guy i know has a TIG and if he's busy. thanks for the tip bra!
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