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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-23-2010, 02:37 PM
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Think about that decision

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77'Omega
ok im going with the pontiac 400 and as for the trans some one is picking it up on there way through okc but it was 75 bucks and if it explodes after puting it in ill just get a different tranny plus i have a buick trans in the shop that looks just like the pontiac trans siting next to it. the buick tranny being a good one and the pontiac having huge holes and cracks all over.
thanks for all the input, i will up date on the 4 spd
GM has not made a "traditional" Pontiac engine since 1978. In the start of the 1979 producton year, GM had 20,000 Pontiac engines on inventory and they installed them in new Pontiacs and used them for service replacements through 1981. In 1982 and later, all Pontiacs received corporate engines.

1962-1963 Poantiacs used Borg Warner T-10, 10-spline 4-speeds.Thease are very weak transmission and unreliable with engine torque over 400 lb. They have narrow gears because they stuffed 4 speed gears in a case desigend for a T-85 HD 3-speed transmission. The T-85 3-speed was actually a stronger transmission.

Note: The 1963 421 HO and 421 Super Duty Pontiacs used B-W Heavy Duty T-10 10-spline 4-speeds that were introduced for the 1962 - 1963 409 Chevrolets. Those transmissions had an aluminum main case and tail housing with high nickle gears. They are very rare and sought after by restorers today. The early B-W T10 had problems under a high torque load and the weak mid plate (bearing support) allowed the transmission to twist. The reverse idler gear would move over about 0.250" and clash with the main gear and break the main transmission case like it was an egg.

1964 - 1974 Pontiacs used Muncie 10-spline 4-speeds, M21 and M20.
1967-1970 Pontiac Forebirds and Tempests with 350 engines used a Saganaw 4-speed.
1973 - 1979 Pontiac Trans Am, 1973 GTO and Firebird 400 or 455 SD used a Borg Warner T-10S (AS-9) 26-spline 4-speed. The so-called Super T-10.
1970-1972 Trans Am 455 HO used a either Muncie M22 Rock Crusher or a B-W T-10S 4-speed. A Muncie M22 4-speed was rare in a Pontiac.
The 1970 - 1974 M22 is sometimes confused with the 1970 1974 M20 and M21 Muncie 4-speed becaue they all use the same large diameter main shaft and TH-400 U-joint yoke.
1975-1979 Pontiacs used Borg-Warner T-10S (AS-9) 26-spline 4-speeds.

All GM manual transmissions will bolt up to all GM bellhousings and the 10-spline or 26-spline pilot shaft will fit all GM crankshafts. Pontiac engines have used the same #7101 ball bearing type pilot bvearing since 1934. Be advised, many 1967-up Pontiac crankshafts were not finished to accept a manual transmission pilot bearing. Before the engine is assembled, a machine shop can finish the crank for a pilot bearing. Pontiac pilot bearings are becoming rare at parts stores and cost about $27 when yiu find one. The good starters are now made by the aftermarket suppliers. Rebuilders have rebuilt all the old Pontiac starters to death. Rebuildable large valve (2.11"/1.77") cylinder heads such as those originally installed on 1967-1970 GTO and Firbird 400 and 455 engines are nearly impossible to find and when you find a pair of those heads that are rebuildable, expect to pay big bucks for them. Pontiac blocks and cranks are in the same boat.

You will spend most of your time looking for parts. Leave the antique Pontiac engines to the restorers.

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Last edited by MouseFink; 06-23-2010 at 03:08 PM. Reason: spelling
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 08:07 AM
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thank you

Thanks mousefink my internet time is cut severely. you just saved me a ton of time on the computer and i also have found a muncie 3 spd. what is the wrap sheet on those. are they worth mesing with, i mean im probly going to be on the highway with this car and on the track from time to time so i want a good launch but i dont want to be at 3k RPM in final gear at 70 mph.
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Old 06-24-2010, 08:37 AM
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Time for a change

I would use well prepared Chevrolet engine and a TH 700-R4 (4L60) automatic transmission with with all the up-grade goodies. I cannot think of a thing a 3-speed manual transmission would be good for except for a fish structure. I have built, raced and showed various Pontiacs since 1967. I can build a Pontiac engine blindfolded, but it is time for a change. Parts for those engines and vehicles have just about dried up. I pity the person who wants to restore one today.

Last year one individual bought my two '63 Pontiac Catlinas with 455 engines, two spare 455 engines, one 389 engine, six pairs of heads, and every other spare part that I had that would fit them. I even tossed in two engine stands in the deal. The only problem I had with that deal was what to do with all the money I received.

I have a good start on a two-owner 1991 Chevrolet S10 Blazer 4x4, 4L60 transmission, and a professionally prepared 4.3L V6 engine. I have squeezed about 50 additional HP out of a 180 HP engine and it is still computer compliant. My objective is 15 sec. flat in the 1/4 mile, which is what the 1963 Pontiac 421 HO Motor Trend test car did.

Future plans include a 454 TBI on my stock intake manifold with bored-out throttle bores. And Edelbrock 68562 headers and Y-pipe, if that equipment will remain computer compliant. I need to go ahead and buy the Edelbrock exhaust system soon before it goes the way of the Do-Do bird and Pontiac parts.

Last edited by MouseFink; 06-24-2010 at 08:44 AM. Reason: spelling
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77'Omega
Thanks mousefink my internet time is cut severely. you just saved me a ton of time on the computer and i also have found a muncie 3 spd. what is the wrap sheet on those. are they worth mesing with, i mean im probly going to be on the highway with this car and on the track from time to time so i want a good launch but i dont want to be at 3k RPM in final gear at 70 mph.
It will depend on your final drive ratio- the 3-speed and non overdrive tranny's in general are 1:1 in high gear.

Three speed trannys aren't much in the way of high performance (although there are HD 3-speeds)- if you want a stick shift, go w/a 4-speed at least.

If you want to run a Pontiac, there are more parts available NOW for them than there ever has been before. You can basically build a BIG Pontiac (if you want big, or a 400 if that's what you want) w/o using any OEM parts. A quick check on craigs just now showed about a dozen different complete engines, then blocks and cranks, heads, manifolds, etc..

Tri-Power set-ups (carbs, mainly) are costly, SD and HO parts are spendy, mainly because of restorers. The pre-'70 blocks had fewer motor mount holes, and there are some things w/the heat X-over to watch out for if you use an earlier intake on later heads, etc. but for the most part if you stick w/a 455 short block and even 6X-4 heads (porting helps) and a hydraulic cam, you can run 12's w/a 3.08 rear gear.

Another option if you wanted a cool ride, plenty of power and some uniqueness to it: Shove a 455 Olds under your Omega's hood. Being as how the Olds Omega is an X-body (Nova clone), you can use a BBC, SBC, inline 6, Pontiac, Olds, or Buick engine in it w/factory parts.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 03:06 PM
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If you really want to do your Omega up right, look at doing an stroker engine starting with the DX Olds 350 diesel block, converted to gas. You can't get a stronger block. I've seen a couple that were 442 cubes(nice coincidence, huh!) one with the new Edelbrock aluminum heads, one with the now rare Batten aluminum head. Both ran like a raped ape.

There is also a company called Bulldog IIRC that is making Olds aluminum hi-po heads.

Look to www.realoldspower.com for info and links.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-24-2010, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77'Omega
ok im going with the pontiac 400
I think you made a good choice- at least not another Chevy engined non Chevy. I applaud you. I'm sure the Olds purists might have something different to say, but the Omega could be had w/a variety of engines from the factory. I just don't think the Pontiac was one of them, though. Oh well- this IS hotrodding, isn't it?? lol

Quote:
as for the trans some one is picking it up on there way through okc but it was 75 bucks and if it explodes after puting it in ill just get a different tranny plus i have a buick trans in the shop that looks just like the pontiac trans siting next to it. the buick tranny being a good one and the pontiac having huge holes and cracks all over.
thanks for all the input, i will up date on the 4 spd
Are the holes in the tranny case? It may be good for parts, at least.

The trannys are basically the same if from a B, O or P (Buick, Olds or Pontiac). The Chev has a different bolt pattern (the bell housing comes to a "peak") but is otherwise similar. The Chev 305 and lesser engines generally had one less clutch in each clutch pack than 350 or 400 SBC trannys, the BOP trannys will also vary some as to clutch count. The BOP trannys seem to have a better chance of having the better clutch counts, in my experience.

The F-body uses the short tailshaft. Swapping out the tailshafts requires an almost complete disassembly. If you swap trannys, you'll want to keep the speedo gears that match your speedometer if you keep the rear gears that are in it now. The F-body also uses a shift arm made to work w/the floor shifter that may or may not be w/the trannys you have.

Finally, there are relatively inexpensive adapter plates that allow you to bolt up a Chevy tranny to a BOP engine. I've used them several times and they work fine. I see they're up to >$60, last one I bought was like $35 IIRC .
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:15 PM
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Well!

i have access to almost any thing but a 442 and (cheap) pontiac parts but price isnt a big deal considering this build is going to take about 15 more months and as far as the trannys i dont want a automatic, for some reason they just dont last around here,i have a 700R4 but it needs new power bands or cluches. But i also found a borg-warner 5 spd out of an lt-1 camaro but ive never heard any thing on those. back on engines i do know were a 455 rocket is in south east texas but i dont know how much he would want for it or if he still has the heads. but i have the pontiac block in the shop now with a .010 turned crank,a full set of rods that i might not use and the pistons are not to appealing. they pop up about an 1/8 of an inch but they have about an 1/8 inch space around the pop up part and valve reliefs, i guess there just some kind of stock pistons ohh just remeberd the 400 is out of a 78 pontiac t/a and it has XX stamped on the passenger side back of the block and X's stamped in various other places.
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Old 06-27-2010, 05:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseFink
I would use well prepared Chevrolet engine and a TH 700-R4 (4L60) automatic transmission with with all the up-grade goodies. I cannot think of a thing a 3-speed manual transmission would be good for except for a fish structure. I have built, raced and showed various Pontiacs since 1967. I can build a Pontiac engine blindfolded, but it is time for a change. Parts for those engines and vehicles have just about dried up. I pity the person who wants to restore one today.

Last year one individual bought my two '63 Pontiac Catlinas with 455 engines, two spare 455 engines, one 389 engine, six pairs of heads, and every other spare part that I had that would fit them. I even tossed in two engine stands in the deal. The only problem I had with that deal was what to do with all the money I received.

I have a good start on a two-owner 1991 Chevrolet S10 Blazer 4x4, 4L60 transmission, and a professionally prepared 4.3L V6 engine. I have squeezed about 50 additional HP out of a 180 HP engine and it is still computer compliant. My objective is 15 sec. flat in the 1/4 mile, which is what the 1963 Pontiac 421 HO Motor Trend test car did.

Future plans include a 454 TBI on my stock intake manifold with bored-out throttle bores. And Edelbrock 68562 headers and Y-pipe, if that equipment will remain computer compliant. I need to go ahead and buy the Edelbrock exhaust system soon before it goes the way of the Do-Do bird and Pontiac parts.
Now a 4.3 i do know, i have mine in my s10 runing low 13's but not constantly on stock intake and heads with a jet programmer and kb 350 flat top pistons zero decked block milled stock heads. but if you want a good 4.3 engine it needs to be 96 and newer,the LF6, produced in 1996 with the introduction of Vortec cylinder heads and a balance shaft that helpt get rid of vibrations which can make it more efficient and reduce the risk of blowing it at higher rpms.but this particulare one was discontinued in 98.All Vortec 4.3s use a cast iron block and heads and 4 in bore and 3.48 in stroke, both of which are the same as a 350, which gives them a displacement of 262.39 cubic inches . Connecting rods still measure 5.7 in although the rod journal diameter is 2.25 in
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Old 06-30-2010, 11:52 PM
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M21

My 1980 Z28 has in it a M21 matching # muncie which I had rebulilt this summer and exept for seals the tranny was inn perfect shape with 116,000kms on it or 100,000miles,people dont beleive me untill I show them them the build sheet and they take a peak under the car, beautifull tranny had her sealed with castrol syntec 70w90 gear oil which will outlast the tranny but still every 2 sesons regardless of mielage I change the fluid, preventative maintenance goes along way.
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2010, 01:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapsz28
My 1980 Z28 has in it a M21 matching # muncie which I had rebulilt this summer and exept for seals the tranny was inn perfect shape with 116,000kms on it or 100,000miles,people dont beleive me untill I show them them the build sheet and they take a peak under the car, beautifull tranny had her sealed with castrol syntec 70w90 gear oil which will outlast the tranny but still every 2 sesons regardless of mielage I change the fluid, preventative maintenance goes along way.
Are you saying you think your 1980 Camaro came with- as in originally equipped with- a Muncie M21?

In "GM speak" RPO code M21 or whatever do not refer to the tranny maker, just a 4-speed close ratio.
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Old 07-01-2010, 01:22 AM
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IMO you will get more bang for your buck with the pontiac. the chevy 400 being a small block design was notorious for over heating and deck warpage because of the thin walled water jackets.bourg warner didnt make a m22 they made turbo T10's found commonly in later year Trans Ams but TA's were still being equiped with M20,21,22's
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 07-01-2010, 06:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndersonRacing44
TA's were still being equiped with M20,21,22's
Muncie M20, 21 and 22 were used in 1980 T/A's?

What was the last year for a Muncie M-anything 4-speed in an F-body? I seem to remember seeing it as '74...

Last edited by cobalt327; 07-01-2010 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 07-01-2010, 06:49 AM
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As someone said, "it is hotrodding"...

So what about shortening the input shaft (or making a sandwich adaptor) and using an A833?
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Muncie M20, 21 and 22 were used in 1980 T/A's?

What was the last year for a Muncie M-anything 4-speed in an F-body? I seem to remember seeing it as '74...
uhh 78' and up to 83 in canada i think 83 anyways
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77'Omega
uhh 78' and up to 83 in canada i think 83 anyways
So in the US you could get a F-car w/a Muncie M-20, etc. until '78?

And in Canada you could get a 3rd. gen F-body ('82-'83) with the Muncie M-20, etc.?
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