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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runn141
the sbc has been on the market alot longer than a pontiac engine for some reason. when was the last pontiac engine made ? 1981.
The gen 1 and gen 2 were dropped, your point is?

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 06:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
The gen 1 and gen 2 were dropped, your point is?
the gen 1 lasted till 1998
and the point is there were more sbc made, maybe thats why
why diddnt pontiac continue?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 06:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
Tell us which shaft you can turn over with one hand, the camshaft or the crankshaft with rods and pistons attached? Since I have to cover all bases in here, which one is more difficult to turn over for you burly guys?
That's cute, and while the cheap childish shot at my expense was noted, I'm sorry to say that I'm 6'1" and a very muscular 235 lbs. I'd call that burly.

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Now tell me, with just the crankshaft and nothing else on it except main caps and bearings, what would 75% be of in your example?
The friction at the journals in the 400 pontiac would be 75% more (or 175% of the total) compared to the 400 chevy. That's not opinion, its physics.

Quote:
The rotating resistance of a crankshaft can be measured in inch/ounces. Are you talking about a 75% increase over the 400 chevy inch/ounce crankshaft resistance which would be?
Whoa, dude. You are talking about a static engine. Sure, when you're assembling an engine and you turn those things, sure they're easy to turn. But, like I said, friction increases by the square of speed. At 6000 rpms, see how much friction is there. Its like an alternator. People assume that since they spin so easily that they don't create drag, but at 5000 rpm making 40 amps, they take measureable HP away from the crank. You have to think in the complex functions that happen in an engine, not just linearly like with what you see when you build one.

At static settings, yes it can be measured in inch-ounces. Pack it full of viscous oil and try spinning it to 6000 rpms and you'll see there's a reason for oil reaching 300 degrees in that bearing.

Quote:
I believe the main bearing friction of the Pontiac main can be canceled out by the piston skirt friction of the shorter rod chevy thus we are back to equal bottom end friction loss wise.
You can cancel out some, but pontiac pistons are much taller than chevy's. Much more friction there.

I also stand by my 75%. Of course, the mains only compose a small amount of overall friction, but do the math and the research. Statistically speaking, those larger mains can cost up to 10 hp all other things being equal. I'd call that significant. If you don't believe me, ask anyone else. HP loss due to larger journals is documentable and a well-known fact among those in the know.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
The gen 1 and gen 2 were dropped, your point is?
Wrong. Gen1 is still being produced in 7 countries for production vehicles.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
Ok, this is classic. I want every engine builder, every street rodder to read this one. Curtis says the 400 Poncho 3" main bearing will create 75% more friction than the 400 sbchevy 2.65 main bearing. Curtis, would you agree that roughly 70 to 73 percent of friction in an engine is caused by ring drag? If you do, that would leave us with 27 to 30 drag within the rest of the engine lying elsewhere in other parts which includes the camshaft/valve-train and related crankshaft bearings, 8 rods and 5 mains.
Does putting down other people make you feel better? There just is no limit to your condescension. You're lack of ability to grasp abstract functions of an engine is certainly not cause to lash out at others.

I agree with Rick. You argue just to argue. Its no longer a discussion when you point and laugh at a person because they demonstrate the simple math on a topic you don't understand.

And, yes. I agree that the majority of the drag is in the rings/pistons. But increasing friction at the journals still contributes to the overall friction. In this case, 75% more friction at the journals. Point and laugh all you want, but I'm right.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
Does putting down other people make you feel better? There just is no limit to your condescension. You're lack of ability to grasp abstract functions of an engine is certainly not cause to lash out at others.

I agree with Rick. You argue just to argue. Its no longer a discussion when you point and laugh at a person because they demonstrate the simple math on a topic you don't understand.

And, yes. I agree that the majority of the drag is in the rings/pistons. But increasing friction at the journals still contributes to the overall friction. In this case, 75% more friction at the journals. Point and laugh all you want, but I'm right.
Don't play this hyper sensitive game with me. I don't aim to please everyone, people with green skin, some with thin skin, and some with thick skin. If you want to take what I wrote as childish, insulting and putting down...then by all means go ahead. I don't control other peoples puppet strings nor do I subscribe to main stream America and its fads that change like the wind. If it makes you feel any better Curtis I certainly do respect your knowledge and if I can Im gona pick your brain as much as you allow me to. You may feel I went a little too far and thats ok...Ill turn the dial back a hair. Only a hair because I believe in taking advantage of knowledge and I am not hesitant to admit to it because for the most part the general consensus in America is work dumb and hard instead of smart and productive.

Now, if you want to keep debating then lets do so because I am sure some folks are interested in learning a thing or two. Some will be stuck in the mud as well. If not we can go our own ways.

I don't in the slightest degree doubt the friction theory/physics of the small vs. large journal but it is obvious that in those particular NHRA classes the large journal didn't keep the Pontiacs from setting records. What I have a problem with is where is the average grass roots guy or gal going to experience the benefits of a small journal? A gain of 10HP at what rpm? Is the average bracket racer going to concern himself over 10HP at the risk of reduced crank strength? Maybe in outlaw and NASCAR racing but...who has the budget for that, 2% of Americans?

Condescension? C'mon, do you really get that from what I write? Since when did America become so sensitive?

Argue just to argue, your good at bandwagon tactics Rick.

By the way, I will edit the "I want every..." to get the debate to a "healthier" level.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtis73
Wrong. Gen1 is still being produced in 7 countries for production vehicles.
Why isn't it in current production vehicles here in America? I believe the 300 Ford six became a S canned engine as well. Emissions rings a bell with me for some reason. For the sake of this all mighty sbchevy well nick pick this question down till I get right. I swear this engine has folk lore equal to that of Grendel Of Beowulf. I bow down before this all mighty piece of cast iron.

Don't fret, everything is cool
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 09:15 PM
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QuenchPiston, why do you argue over something you dont even like? you can go into every internal detail of how or why another motor is better than sbc and it wont make any difference and you know it, now im sure no one cares wether you like a chevy or not but you obviestly care wether someone does most of the threads you get on are about the sbc and all you do is bash em. what the hell is wrong with you? your not gonna convince anybody to convert, im sure if there were as many aftermarket parts for any other manfacturer as they are for the sbc it would be a different story. but their are none let alone any other engine in production as long. surely when out among other people you surely dont act like this do you? argue to argue or debating theres really no difference. i mean you may as well change your name from QUENCHPISTON to B!*CHBOX

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runn141
QuenchPiston, why do you argue over something you dont even like? you can go into every internal detail of how or why another motor is better than sbc and it wont make any difference and you know it, now im sure no one cares wether you like a chevy or not but you obviestly care wether someone does most of the threads you get on are about the sbc and all you do is bash em. what the hell is wrong with you? your not gonna convince anybody to convert, im sure if there were as many aftermarket parts for any other manfacturer as they are for the sbc it would be a different story. but their are none let alone any other engine in production as long. surely when out among other people you surely dont act like this do you? argue to argue or debating theres really no difference. i mean you may as well change your name from QUENCHPISTON to B!*CHBOX
What the frig is wrong with you runn? You should change you name to RunnW/a Bleeding Heart. What does this post of yours have to do with:

Now, im having a hard time finding one local and one guy I was shootin the **** with at a coffee shop suggested I just use a pontiac 400. I figured cubes are cubes, pontiac 400s seem alot easier to come by, why dont more people do it?

So my question is a few fold, are there major differences between pontiac and chevy 400s, or engines in general?

How do pontiac engines compare to chevy engines? (Or is it a taste thing?)

For peats sake, every time someone comes on this forum asking about using a different engine besides the king mighty sbcrap you mouse folks are up in arms over it trying to codle the person into puting a cookie cutter engine into it. As if there were no other engine under the sun besides the mouse engine. Get over youselves allready! I try to point out all the facts about the Poncho engine and you still jump in my soup. One guy says valve angles dont matter and in the same breath mentions that the 15 degree sbchevy heads are in a class all by themselves, nutn can compete or touch a sbchevy. For peats sake you even cut down big block Chevy guys. Grow up already! Screw this thread.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 12-23-2006, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
What the frig is wrong with you runn? You should change you name to RunnW/a Bleeding Heart. What does this post of yours have to do with:

Now, im having a hard time finding one local and one guy I was shootin the **** with at a coffee shop suggested I just use a pontiac 400. I figured cubes are cubes, pontiac 400s seem alot easier to come by, why dont more people do it?

So my question is a few fold, are there major differences between pontiac and chevy 400s, or engines in general?

How do pontiac engines compare to chevy engines? (Or is it a taste thing?)

For peats sake, every time someone comes on this forum asking about using a different engine besides the king mighty sbcrap you mouse folks are up in arms over it trying to codle the person into puting a cookie cutter engine into it. As if there were no other engine under the sun besides the mouse engine. Get over youselves allready! I try to point out all the facts about the Poncho engine and you still jump in my soup. One guy says valve angles dont matter and in the same breath mentions that the 15 degree sbchevy heads are in a class all by themselves, nutn can compete or touch a sbchevy. For peats sake you even cut down big block Chevy guys. Grow up already! Screw this thread.
i never cut down any big block chevy guys.
i dont know that pontiac 400s are easier to come by let alone any pontiac
and yes they ask about using a different engine and more testimonials point toward the sbc, and you cant seem to accept that.
and to a chevy guy there is no other engine under the sun.
(screw this thread) who needs to grow up?
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2006, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuenchPiston
Why isn't it in current production vehicles here in America?
Its still available in commercial vans right here in the good ol' US of A. Its not common, but I just serviced one in a 2006 Isuzu NPR cube van.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2006, 03:17 AM
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So a little different reply. I loved my SBC 400 in my Suburban after I went through the engine and put on a set of good heads, Doug's headers, and a whole bunch of other neat stuff. Hwy. 38 from I15 to Palmdale is a lousy and steep mountain road to get to Los Angeles County Raceway. The 400 would sing up the grade at 48 MPH pulling the race car on the trailer. Then I bought a new Suburban with a 350 TBI engine, and it crawled up the grade maxing out at 31 MPH - I pretty much hated that combination. Not much later I traded it in on a new Suburban with a Vortec 454 engine. It was just a little slower than the built 400 pulling up the grade at 44 MPH. Latest vehicle is an Avalanche with the 5.3 liter engine. This little 327 engine screams up the grade at 58 MPH and gets double the mileage that any of the others got. I love this little beast of an engine. It's hard to beat modern technology.

Anyway, the race car we're dragging up the hill is a '68 Firebird with a 400 Pontiac engine. Suppliers have started to produce Pontiac aftermarket parts for us like they have for Chevy and Ford guys all these years. This 400 doesn't look any different than the 350 that the badging says we have in the car. The aftermarket Eagle crank doesn't cost that much and comes as a 455 stroker crank with 3" mains and 4.25" stroke giving 474 cubic inches. The Ross pistons cost the same regardless of what block you drop them in. We borrow the Chevy BB Eagle 6.8" rods with a 2.20" journal size. Yep, Chevy sized rods are a little cheaper than the Pontiac rods so we use them and pick up a little extra stroke and spend a little less money. We end up with all those cubes in a package that still looks like an old Pontiac 350. There is now high end Pontiac blocks and heads that I can't afford the same as there are high end Chevy parts that I also couldn't afford. I expect to be beaten by a good percentage of Chevy powered cars and I take it in stride. You would be amazed at what happens when we pull away from them - many shut off at half track and fake problems rather than be smoked by a lowly Pontiac. If I raced a Chevy I'd miss out on all this additional fun. Besides, it gets boring seeing nothing but Chevy engines out there...
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 06-13-2007, 08:09 AM
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Within the discussion of the large main bearing diameter weight wasn't brought into the picture. A Pontiac 400 crank is ungodly heavy compared to a Chevy crank. Chevy cranks weigh around 52 pounds (stock production 350 crank) the poncho 400 crank must have 25-30 lbs on the Chevy in just the crank which turns into parasitic loss. there's a reason racers are running around with 37lb smallblock cranks and aluminum rods. extra weight is lost horse power.
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Old 06-23-2010, 02:30 PM
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3 in.

i kinda like the idea of having the extra little bit of iron on it for some excess romping. it just seems the 3 inch bearings would absorb the shock and forces of compression and weight of the vehicle. i love Chevy and always have always will but i m building a 400 poncho as we speak just cause. wanna see what happens and if any one puts a motor and tranny through a true test its me.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-08-2010, 03:10 AM
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Here is where I have arrived w/sbc mf starter b fn shizle

Delt with some of this action years ago and the vehicles went away(thank god) so I never got to the bottom of it in my mind...

Well, Low-and-behold here I go again...And this engine is not going in with a starter/flywheel combo which is damaging itself with every turn of the pinion...

..After many parts..I.E. cheapy fly wheel ,cheapy starters from different source,"new" starters from different sourc$450 dollar flywheel from Renezeders trophy truck,Fancy mini Starter from Trophy Truck,(thanks Mike) OEM ring gear (new) Shims to infinity and beyond...

After all this I finally arrived at the fact that whatever bad arse or cheap P.O.S. starter I use,it is gonna have to be congruent with the ring gear... Here is a pic of my current solution which is finally allowing starter pinion gear to fly all the way in and fly all the way out all by itself...The boss which starter mounts is distorted so is just null as any kind of point of reference...

Now,I aint sayin' this is a answer or "the" answer by any means...Or that this design is refined...It is my first go at this silly sbc start engagement issue that is not allowing me to live life to its fullest...This is just where I have arrived...7:30pm - 12:30pm from idea to a functional alignment device...The design elements are so basic(form follows function) I would have to move to a circular clamp style mount which encompasses the starter body in a more ideal mount point(on the starter) even though this mount point has better leverage,but the mount on those 2 studs makes me skeered... Please tear it apart,i HAVE THICK SKIN AND WOULD BE SO STOKED TO HEAR (oops) not shouting......and see some ideas that blow this current design out of the water...Fire Away...

Funny,folks who have "never heard of" or "have never delt with" this issue are just going wth is that thing for...whoda hada wada?

finished for today Lawrence

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