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Old 06-28-2011, 04:27 PM
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400 sbc w/pitts in bore, pics

I had posted on here where I had dropped my motor off at the machine shop to get work done including bored. I told the machine shop to see if they could clean it up on .030" because one of the cylinders had some pitting from rust, but the most I wanted to go over was .040" and if that didnt do it for them to give me a call. I was told motor was ready and was told it cleaned up on the .030" with no problems but when I got there to pick it up the machine shop manager told me just as wheeled it to my vehicle that there was a couple of spots in the cylinders that didnt clean up but not to worry because it will be fine. I asked if it needed the .040" bore? because I had OK'd that with him when I first dropped it off but he reassured me that it is fine with the .030" and he has done allot of 400's like this without any ill effects.
I really couldnt inspect it to well while there as it was on a had truck and I was limited to what I could do but after I got it home I could run my finger over the spot and slightly feel it, so I took pics to show what I got





I am not a machinist and believe what he says because this is what he does for a living and i know he has been the shop manager for over 10yrs but this doesnt still seem right with me. If this isnt usable and will need to go .040" to clean up, why would he go ahead and give it to me like this knowing I may bring it back as an angered customer.......
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:45 PM
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First. What is the intended use of this engine. Street car, drag car, hot rod ?

For a normal, real world, mild street car engine the spots won't hurt. 400's, in use, move around a lot in the upper bores. A few thousand miles and the pit will disappear. A high horse competition engine will have a minor top ring seal issue. Probably no worse than running a non plate honed block..
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Old 06-28-2011, 05:04 PM
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I was hoping for a high HP/TQ street rod when I am done (500hp~) just don't wanna build a grenade. I will have all forged internals with a set of aluminum heads and a radical solid roller cam, compression hopefully around 11:1.
I was thinking about later addin some nitrous but it will be way later as money seems to be flowing away from me quickly. I don't have all the specs for motor yet as I am just at the beginning stages, just payed $450 to machine shop and hoping everything was done right.
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Old 06-29-2011, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIdLOCK
I was hoping for a high HP/TQ street rod when I am done (500hp~) just don't wanna build a grenade. I will have all forged internals with a set of aluminum heads and a radical solid roller cam, compression hopefully around 11:1.
I was thinking about later addin some nitrous but it will be way later as money seems to be flowing away from me quickly. I don't have all the specs for motor yet as I am just at the beginning stages, just payed $450 to machine shop and hoping everything was done right.
On 400 block its a good idea to have them sonic tested for cylinder wall thickness before doing doing anything to the block.

On a 400 GM block its a good idea to have them plate honed as those blocks with the bigger bores and thin decks are the weakest SBC and we see more cylinder distortoin in a 400 block over a 350 block.

If you want 500 horse ring seal is key.

Like what was posted earlier if your block was not plate hone those pits don't really mean nothing at this point!!!
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIdLOCK
I had posted on here where I had dropped my motor off at the machine shop to get work done including bored. I told the machine shop to see if they could clean it up on .030" because one of the cylinders had some pitting from rust, but the most I wanted to go over was .040" and if that didnt do it for them to give me a call. I was told motor was ready and was told it cleaned up on the .030" with no problems but when I got there to pick it up the machine shop manager told me just as wheeled it to my vehicle that there was a couple of spots in the cylinders that didnt clean up but not to worry because it will be fine. I asked if it needed the .040" bore? because I had OK'd that with him when I first dropped it off but he reassured me that it is fine with the .030" and he has done allot of 400's like this without any ill effects.
I really couldnt inspect it to well while there as it was on a had truck and I was limited to what I could do but after I got it home I could run my finger over the spot and slightly feel it, so I took pics to show what I got





I am not a machinist and believe what he says because this is what he does for a living and i know he has been the shop manager for over 10yrs but this doesnt still seem right with me. If this isnt usable and will need to go .040" to clean up, why would he go ahead and give it to me like this knowing I may bring it back as an angered customer.......
This is bad, it might pass for an old lady's going' to church Impala but it ain't gonna cut it as a performance engine. The pits and grooves will trap oil that the rings can't clear which will be pumped into the combustion chamber at the same time will also provide a path for blow by around the piston. The super rough gouge at the top if it isn't above the ring travel will just tear the rings apart.

I'm surprised he's trying to pass this off. It might clean at 40 over but for a 400 block this is starting to push the limit, these things are thin to start with and see pretty high thrust loads from the piston. Certainly sonic testing would be in order before going further. Sleeving might save the block but that gets expensive pretty quickly, but otherwise this block just might be junk.

Bogie
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:02 PM
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So, should I just take it back and ask them to do the .040, I called and got a machine but I was just asking about the torque plate honing. They left a message saying that they didn't do that but can be done for an extra $40. does it look like it may clean up on just the Plate honing alone? at this point I don't know if I should believe anything he says as he let this come back to me like this knowing I didn't mind going the .040 over. Maybe they didn't wanna fool with it anymore but I think if this isn't right it should be made right. He didn't seem bashful about taking my money.I am just kinda lost,
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Old 06-29-2011, 02:24 PM
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It needs to go .040" over- IF it can. As already stated it needs to be sonic checked. Honing does not remove material, it simply prepares the surface.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:22 PM
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Honing does remove material, but it's imperfect and a very slow, painstaking way to go, I've cleaned up minor imperfections with a hone.
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Old 06-29-2011, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIdLOCK
I was hoping for a high HP/TQ street rod when I am done (500hp~) just don't wanna build a grenade. I will have all forged internals with a set of aluminum heads and a radical solid roller cam, compression hopefully around 11:1.
I was thinking about later addin some nitrous but it will be way later as money seems to be flowing away from me quickly. I don't have all the specs for motor yet as I am just at the beginning stages, just payed $450 to machine shop and hoping everything was done right.
The angle and finish of the honing looks terrible to me. Then add the pitting to that, and the shop telling you all is fine and to run it as-is? I'll tell you this: All the running I would be doing is to get the hell away from that shop!

Take it elsewhere, and at least get a second opinion. I don't know what you got for $450 as far as machine work on this block, but the time has come to cut your losses at this point, IMO. You've already heard the procedure for seeing if it'll go 0.040" over or not. Usually the bore or rough hone will be done to within ~0.003" of the final bore size, the last is removed by the finishing hone- and have it done w/a torque plate in place.

Last edited by cobalt327; 06-29-2011 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:00 PM
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Well I am already in the hole $420 on the machining already, not including the parts I already purchase for the build except for pistons, I guess I am not understanding why he believed this would be ok and go through with doing all the other work I asked for if he new this block could be junk. The message he left he stated that they don't plate hone GM blocks without the customers request and I should be aware it will remove an additional 1/2 thousandths to a thousandth ( ). I guess I will just take it back tomorrow and tell him I am not happy with the results and see if he will redo it to the .040" without charging me, times are hard and any extra money they can squeeze will be a plus.

Last edited by GRIdLOCK; 06-29-2011 at 09:12 PM.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:16 PM
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Personally i'd have never left the machine shop with that block in that condition. Any machine shop worth a damn should have known just by looking at it that those pits were too deep. I myself dont think that it will clear up with even .040 over.

Id say you're looking at sleeves in the affected cylinders, amd then boring back to .030" where its at now - or else look for a new block. And maybe try to get your money back on the work they've done on this one because in my opinion, it never should have had this work done to it.

But just so you know, I dont blame you, i blame the machinist.
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Old 06-29-2011, 09:25 PM
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The list of things done,
1) bored
2) deck plugs installed
3) decked
4) cam bearing install
5) all new plugs
6) cleaned
That's it and I supplied deck plugs and cam bearings, I do know of another local independent engine builder that I forgot about till today, he has his own machine shop and builds local race engines. I wish I would have remembered him and I would have had him do the work, now I'm screwed, let Marietta ignition redo this and see if they can make it right or take elsewhere. the local NAPA shop doesn't even have a torque plate for a 400 so that's not an option.
Will machine shops refund money due to shotty workmanship?
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Old 06-29-2011, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIdLOCK
Will machine shops refund money due to shotty workmanship?
Oh, how how would you go about proving it? Another machine shops say so?
sorry, just never been in this position before, kinda disappointed and mad, lol
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Old 06-30-2011, 04:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GRIdLOCK
The list of things done,
1) bored
2) deck plugs installed
3) decked
4) cam bearing install
5) all new plugs
6) cleaned
That's it and I supplied deck plugs and cam bearings, I do know of another local independent engine builder that I forgot about till today, he has his own machine shop and builds local race engines. I wish I would have remembered him and I would have had him do the work, now I'm screwed, let Marietta ignition redo this and see if they can make it right or take elsewhere. the local NAPA shop doesn't even have a torque plate for a 400 so that's not an option.
Will machine shops refund money due to shotty workmanship?
Even at .040 over it amy not clean us your only taking .005 a side and if you not plate honing your 400 block you may as run it the way it is as ring seal will be poor any how.

If you go .040 you will see more distortion once the heads are bolted on and in the end you will not be happy with the blowby you will see or leak it down as that show you whats going on.

I would never try sleeving a 400 block as sometimes its a big waste of money on those blocks.

Did the shop balance your rotator??

After looking at the honing job it looks like it was not done on a quality hone and there is good power to be gained if honing is done correctly using a good hone.
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:14 AM
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CNC BLOCKS NE x2
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